wxWindows vs. FLTK

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Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK

paul winwood-3
I have read the comments made about bloat when using wxWindows and I 
wanted to put the other side of the story.

wxWindows has what I understand to be a native X11 version as well. 
See http://www.wxwindows.org/fosdem2003/html/talk/img14.html

wxWindows can compile to something much smaller by turning off the 
options in the configuration file. (You can then remove the 
equivalent bindings in the wxLua interface).

The 2MB Windows wxLua executable contains most the wxWindows UI 
bindings this includes all the 'modern' UI devices such as docking 
windows, toolbars, status bars and a colour syntax highlighting 
editor. This means that in the 2MB executable there is everything 
required not only to run wxLua programs but you can edit and debug 
them as well. The IDE is written in Lua code, compiled with luac and 
then compiled into the executable.

wxWindows runs on the MAC as well: both old and few flavours. The 
only reason why I have not released a version of wxLua for the 
MAC is simple: I don't own a MAC and so far no-one has offered to 
port it. It should not be too complex a job.




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RE: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Nick Trout-5
In reply to this post by Antonio Scuri

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] 
> [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
> Sent: February 12, 2003 3:47 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was 
> wxWindows vs. FLTK]
> 
> 
> well, I've got a GPL project at
> 
> http://www.gime.org/twiki/bin/view/Gime/GraphicFrontend
> 


Theres another one that comes with Yindo:

http://www.yindo.com/

http://www.yindo.com/docs/ScriptLibrary/Interface.html




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[LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.

Björn De Meyer
The project page is here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/luacheia

I've added most uspeople who wanted to be included with ample 
permissions. I made Martin Spernau the second project
administrator, as I don't want to look like a (benevolent?) 
dictator. Martin, could you please upload the hompage?
Thank you!

The luacheia-list mailing list is ready to rumble!
You can subscribe here:

http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/luacheia-list

The Sourceforge forums are also ready here:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=251802

Although I personally think the mailing list might be preferrable.

-- 
"No one knows true heroes, for they speak not of their greatness." -- 
Daniel Remar.
Björn De Meyer 
[hidden email]

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Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Thatcher Ulrich
In reply to this post by paul winwood-3
On Feb 12, 2003 at 05:56 -0000, paul_winwood <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have read the comments made about bloat when using wxWindows and I 
> wanted to put the other side of the story.
[...]

A word of support: IMO wxLua is the best all-around GUI toolkit for
Lua, but of course other people's opinions will vary depending on what
they value the most.  I would be very glad to see a wxLua that is
loadable as a module, rather than having the interpreter built-in.  I
think it would be interesting to write & debug SDL programs from the
GUI, etc.

Also I think it's a mistake to try to debate one "official" GUI for
LuaCheia -- the whole point (as I see it) is to be inclusive and
support mixing & matching by users.

-- 
Thatcher Ulrich
http://tulrich.com

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Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Martin Spernau
In reply to this post by Nick Trout-5
From: "Nick Trout" <[hidden email]>
> > well, I've got a GPL project at
> >
> > http://www.gime.org/twiki/bin/view/Gime/GraphicFrontend
> >
>
>
> Theres another one that comes with Yindo:
>
> http://www.yindo.com/
>
> http://www.yindo.com/docs/ScriptLibrary/Interface.html
>

Erm, is Yindo OpenSource? I mean Yindo is very cool, but as far as I know
based on 3.2 and no longer maintained?
-Martin


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Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Martin Spernau
In reply to this post by Thatcher Ulrich
> On Feb 12, 2003 at 05:56 -0000, paul_winwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > I have read the comments made about bloat when using wxWindows and I
> > wanted to put the other side of the story.
> [...]
>
> A word of support: IMO wxLua is the best all-around GUI toolkit for
> Lua, but of course other people's opinions will vary depending on what
> they value the most.  I would be very glad to see a wxLua that is
> loadable as a module, rather than having the interpreter built-in.  I
> think it would be interesting to write & debug SDL programs from the
> GUI, etc.

My optionon too. I do like wxLua very much as a complete GUI building
environment. Only problem I had was using Modules with wxLua AND a faceless
Lua interpreter.
wxLua loadable as Module would be a dream.

Leaving out the non-GUI related stuff from the wx bindings would be what I'd
do, as to not duplicate functionality covered by other Modules. (Sockets, DB
etc.)

And wx has one great plus on all platforms: it is by far the most 'native'
and 'professional' looking Toolkit I've seen.

As I mentioned some time ago (?) I have compiled an experimental wxLua that
had loadmodule support and uses unmodified lua-4.0.dll and lualib-4.0.dll
(same as my loadmodule enabled lua.exe)
I haven't extensively tested this setup, as I currently didn't have much
interst in GUI anyway (I was aiming in doing the frontend in HTML/JS)

> Also I think it's a mistake to try to debate one "official" GUI for
> LuaCheia -- the whole point (as I see it) is to be inclusive and
> support mixing & matching by users.

Yes! For me, a GUI lib for LuaCheia is only a 'nice to have' for now.

-Martin


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Re: [LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.

Martin Spernau
In reply to this post by Björn De Meyer
Good News!
HomePage coming ASAP.
-Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Björn De Meyer" <[hidden email]>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 9:33 PM
Subject: [LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.


> The project page is here:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/luacheia
>
> I've added most uspeople who wanted to be included with ample
> permissions. I made Martin Spernau the second project
> administrator, as I don't want to look like a (benevolent?)
> dictator. Martin, could you please upload the hompage?
> Thank you!
>
> The luacheia-list mailing list is ready to rumble!
> You can subscribe here:
>
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/luacheia-list
>
> The Sourceforge forums are also ready here:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=251802
>
> Although I personally think the mailing list might be preferrable.
>
> --
> "No one knows true heroes, for they speak not of their greatness." --
> Daniel Remar.
> Björn De Meyer
> [hidden email]
>


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RE: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Nick Trout-5
In reply to this post by Juergen Fuhrmann

> paul_winwood <[hidden email]>
> Sent: February 12, 2003 9:57 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK
> 
> I have read the comments made about bloat when using wxWindows and I 
> wanted to put the other side of the story.
> 
> The 2MB Windows wxLua executable contains most the wxWindows UI 
> bindings this includes all the 'modern' UI devices such as docking 
> windows, toolbars, status bars and a colour syntax highlighting 
> editor. This means that in the 2MB executable there is everything 
> required not only to run wxLua programs but you can edit and debug 
> them as well. The IDE is written in Lua code, compiled with luac and 
> then compiled into the executable.

I started writing a Lua Editor/Debugger in wxWindows and I was surprised
how small the exe was when I statically compiled wxWindows (400/500k if
I recall - considering the size of the library anyway). There is a lot
you can remove. I did some homework when I was choosing a GUI for Lua
and the Lua community and these are my notes (granted FLTK now has a Mac
port):

http://lua-users.org/wiki/VisLuaImplementation

I came down on the size of wxWindows because:

* It has the largest widget set.

* It's the most portable.

* It is very well supported and has a large community (FLTKs look pretty
good too)

* wxStyledTextCtrl which is basically Scintilla
(http://www.scintilla.org/SciTEImage.html) wrapped (and quite nicely).
Note, this has a lexer for Lua built in. 

* It has SWIG support so in the event that I end up having to bind it,
it could be done using LuaSWIG.

* I didn't like the FLTK GUI editor and there werent any others.
wxWindows has a number of commercial and open solutions.

I agree that it would be better to have more than one solution but I
also think binding and maintaining an evolving GUI library is a lot of
work, so the effort would be best spent on one solution initially. I
Think wxLua/wxWindows is the better solution for the reasons above.
Python had Tcl/Tk bindings from early on and although I don't really
agree that it was the nicest library to use it did unify the community
and some useful tools came out of it (eg. IDLE). I think there is going
to be an awful lot of work creating this library - and a lot maintaining
it. Beware of spreading the effort too thinly over too wide an area.

Regards,
Nick





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Re: [LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.

Martin Spernau
In reply to this post by Martin Spernau
Ok Website is up, but it's a static copy for now.(SF.net does not support
fetching files via PHP remotely)

We need to decide if we want to keep documenting/planning on
lua-users.org/wiki/ or if we want to have our own Wiki on LzuaCheia.sf.net

-Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Spernau" <[hidden email]>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.


> Good News!
> HomePage coming ASAP.
> -Martin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Björn De Meyer" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 9:33 PM
> Subject: [LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.
>
>
> > The project page is here:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/luacheia
> >
> > I've added most uspeople who wanted to be included with ample
> > permissions. I made Martin Spernau the second project
> > administrator, as I don't want to look like a (benevolent?)
> > dictator. Martin, could you please upload the hompage?
> > Thank you!
> >
> > The luacheia-list mailing list is ready to rumble!
> > You can subscribe here:
> >
> > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/luacheia-list
> >
> > The Sourceforge forums are also ready here:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=251802
> >
> > Although I personally think the mailing list might be preferrable.
> >
> > --
> > "No one knows true heroes, for they speak not of their greatness." --
> > Daniel Remar.
> > Björn De Meyer
> > [hidden email]
> >
>


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Re: [LuaCheia] Sourceforge project accepted.

Björn De Meyer
Martin Spernau wrote:
> 
> Ok Website is up, but it's a static copy for now.(SF.net does not support
> fetching files via PHP remotely)
> 
> We need to decide if we want to keep documenting/planning on
> lua-users.org/wiki/ or if we want to have our own Wiki on LzuaCheia.sf.net
> 

I suppose that for now, a link to the wiki will do.

-- 
"No one knows true heroes, for they speak not of their greatness." -- 
Daniel Remar.
Björn De Meyer 
[hidden email]

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Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Steve Dekorte-4
In reply to this post by Nick Trout-5

On Wednesday, February 12, 2003, at 10:45 AM, Nick Trout wrote:
Theres another one that comes with Yindo:

http://www.yindo.com/

http://www.yindo.com/docs/ScriptLibrary/Interface.html

If anyone is interested in Yindo's UI lib, I can send them the last version and some notes. I'm not working on it anymore but it could do some neat stuff:

http://www.dekorte.com/Portfolio/Images/Yindo/multi.jpg

Cheers,
Steve
OSX freeware and shareware: http://www.dekorte.com/downloads.html


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Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Martin Spernau
From: "Steve Dekorte" <[hidden email]>
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2003, at 10:45 AM, Nick Trout wrote:
> > Theres another one that comes with Yindo:
> >
> > http://www.yindo.com/
> >
> > http://www.yindo.com/docs/ScriptLibrary/Interface.html
>
> If anyone is interested in Yindo's UI lib, I can send them the last
> version and some notes. I'm not working on it anymore but it could do
> some neat stuff:

That sounds like a very good offer!
Only I think I'm not a good enough C/C++ Guy to take you up on that offer.
Anybody?

Thanks, Martin


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Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Steve Dekorte-4

On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 12:26 AM, Martin Spernau wrote:
That sounds like a very good offer!
Only I think I'm not a good enough C/C++ Guy to take you up on that offer.
Anybody?

The Yindo UI stuff is all written in Lua.

Cheers,
Steve
OSX freeware and shareware: http://www.dekorte.com/downloads.html


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RE: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Peter Prade
> > That sounds like a very good offer!
> > Only I think I'm not a good enough C/C++ Guy to take you up on that 
> > offer.
> > Anybody?
> 
> The Yindo UI stuff is all written in Lua.
So it is open source now? That would be great :-)
Does this apply only to the UI stuff or to Yindo as a whole?

Cheers,
Peter

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Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Steve Dekorte-4

On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 04:56 AM, Peter Prade wrote:
The Yindo UI stuff is all written in Lua.
So it is open source now? That would be great :-)
Does this apply only to the UI stuff or to Yindo as a whole?

Just the UI.

Cheers,
Steve
OSX freeware and shareware: http://www.dekorte.com/downloads.html


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Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Juergen Fuhrmann
In reply to this post by Nick Trout-5
>  Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:03:28 -0800
>  "Nick Trout" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>  I started writing a Lua Editor/Debugger in wxWindows and I was surprised
>  how small the exe was when I statically compiled wxWindows (400/500k if
>  I recall - considering the size of the library anyway). There is a lot
>  you can remove. I did some homework when I was choosing a GUI for Lua
>  and the Lua community and these are my notes (granted FLTK now has a Mac
>  port):
>  
>  http://lua-users.org/wiki/VisLuaImplementation
>  
>  I came down on the size of wxWindows because:
>  
>  * It has the largest widget set.
>  
>  * It's the most portable.

 Still to be tested... see below.

  
>  * It is very well supported and has a large community (FLTKs look pretty
>  good too)
>  
>  * wxStyledTextCtrl which is basically Scintilla
>  (http://www.scintilla.org/SciTEImage.html) wrapped (and quite nicely).
>  Note, this has a lexer for Lua built in. 
>  
>  * It has SWIG support so in the event that I end up having to bind it,
>  it could be done using LuaSWIG.

I liked the idea of swig, but it  was a pain for me to use LuaSWIG, (I
did not  find out  how to  bind garbage collectors  for C  objects). I
dropped it for tolua (and thus decided to go with Lua maybe "forever")
and I am happy with this. 


>  * I didn't like the FLTK GUI editor and there werent any others.
>  wxWindows has a number of commercial and open solutions.

I am  no specialist in  GUI building, so  I cannot judge. I  need just
something lean with OpenGL in there where a user can click on. I would
not like to  have a to install  a GUI package which is  larger than my
app on a user's box.


>  I agree that it would be better to have more than one solution but I
>  also think binding and maintaining an evolving GUI library is a lot of
>  work, so the effort would be best spent on one solution initially. 

I basically agree on this. Do not split forces for maintaing different
GUIs.

I took  the wxwindows-2.3..  snapshot and  wxwindows-2.4.0 release and
tried to  get one of them running  on my desktop Tru64  alpha box.  It
does not  work out-of-the-box. With investing  some time, I  am sure I
could fight  it through,  but not  without pain.  For  now, I  have to
stop.  Neihter with Lua, nor with FLTK I felt that pain.


The system may  seem to be a  bit exotic, but it indeed  is very clean
POSIX, the only  "difference" is that it is 64  bit from the beginnig,
and  this is pain  for many  packages which  make some  assumptions on
pointer sizes.   We have  64 bit transitions  still going on  on Irix,
Solaris, AIX. All of these are a must for me.



Juergen

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RE: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Nick Trout-5
In reply to this post by Juergen Fuhrmann

> On Behalf Of Juergen Fuhrmann
> Sent: February 13, 2003 8:04 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK
> 
> >  * I didn't like the FLTK GUI editor and there werent any others.
> >  wxWindows has a number of commercial and open solutions.
> 
> I am  no specialist in  GUI building, so  I cannot judge. I  need just
> something lean with OpenGL in there where a user can click on. I would
> not like to  have a to install  a GUI package which is  larger than my
> app on a user's box.

Why don't you look at http://doris.sf.net/ then? :) It is an OpenGL
binding with a binding to GLUI, which is an OpenGL widget set.

> The system may  seem to be a  bit exotic, but it indeed  is very clean
> POSIX, the only  "difference" is that it is 64  bit from the beginnig,
> and  this is pain  for many  packages which  make some  assumptions on
> pointer sizes.   We have  64 bit transitions  still going on  on Irix,
> Solaris, AIX. All of these are a must for me.

Sorry I don't know anything about 64bit platforms. I seem to remember
reading some issues about 64bit in the wx code but I cant remember them.

Interestingly there is a wxEmbedded version being developed, so people
with Palms and WinCE might be interested in writing Lua apps?

>From memory the wxUniv version renders its own widgets, so no dependency
on GTK etc.

The problem I have with FLTK is that you can spend all your time writing
a binding for it and then it doesn't quite give you all the
functionality you require. Its ok as a simple GUI tool but I don't think
it provides the functionality of an advanced GUI. wx is a one shot
solution - if you get it working I don't think you'd need another GUI.

Oooo wxLua is on the map!
http://www.koansoftware.com/wxwindows/frmwrk.htm
from http://wxwindows.org/ (damn frames!)

Has anyone thought about writing a proxy so you could use wxPython (or
the whole Python library) from Lua? Would it be possible to wrap Python
objects and deal with them in Lua?

N




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Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Juergen Fuhrmann
>  Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:22:43 -0800
>  "Nick Trout" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>  
>  > On Behalf Of Juergen Fuhrmann
>  > Sent: February 13, 2003 8:04 AM
>  > To: Multiple recipients of list
>  > Subject: Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK
>  > 
>  > >  * I didn't like the FLTK GUI editor and there werent any others.
>  > >  wxWindows has a number of commercial and open solutions.
>  > 
>  > I am  no specialist in  GUI building, so  I cannot judge. I  need just
>  > something lean with OpenGL in there where a user can click on. I would
>  > not like to  have a to install  a GUI package which is  larger than my
>  > app on a user's box.
>  
>  Why don't you look at http://doris.sf.net/ then? :) It is an OpenGL
>  binding with a binding to GLUI, which is an OpenGL widget set.
>  

Well, because I  rolled my own glWindows core which I  was able to map
to fltk, I did not try glut for  a long time. The main point is that I
want to be  able to control graphics from  legacy numerical code which
means  that I  calculate  something, draw(),  do further  calculations
draw()  again in  the same  windwo  etc.  The  conventional main  loop
handling in GLUT  (at least in the  versions I had a look  at) did not
give me this option. Yes, maybe I am  wrong, but at the and I am not a
GUI guy, but a numerical analyst with coding addiction...

Ok,  this becomes  off-topic,  so I  stop  here. I  crosspost this  to
luacheia.

Juergen





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Re: wxWindows vs. FLTK

Jean-Claude Wippler
In reply to this post by Juergen Fuhrmann
"Nick Trout" <[hidden email]> wrote:
 * It has the largest widget set.
 * It's the most portable.
 * It is very well supported and has a large community [...]
 * wxStyledTextCtrl which is basically Scintilla [...]
 * It has SWIG support [...]

What is the reason to ignore Tk?

(Just trying to understand, rationally - don't get upset, please)

-jcw


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Re: Many GUI Toolkits, no "Best Option" [was wxWindows vs. FLTK]

Steve Dekorte-4
In reply to this post by Antonio Scuri

On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 08:51 AM, Peter Prade wrote:
Well, i'd like to have a look on it! :-)

http://www.dekorte.com/Library/lui.tgz

I was still experimenting with object models when I wrote this and chose a poor one. I'd recommend moving it to a differential inheritance model if you decide to use it. In any case, it might contain some useful code for other OpenGL based toolkits.

Btw, if your interested in this sort of thing, you might like my latest project:
http://www.dekorte.com/Software/C/Io/

Cheers,
Steve
OSX freeware and shareware: http://www.dekorte.com/downloads.html


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