promoting Lua

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promoting Lua

Patrick Mc(avery
As I was saying I am new to Lua and I have not finished with the basics
but again I am already in love with it. Once I am competent I would like
to start promoting the language and I was wondering what would be best.

I thought I could do some screencast tutorials.

When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc. BTW this also works
well with hosting providers to dig up dirt.

Lua sucks actually comes up with few results and the complaints are
rather silly but still I was thinking about registering luasucks.org or
something similar. I was thinking it might be helpful to try to "own"
this keyword and displace others on the net. It could be a place to
dispel myths about Lua(I.E it's a gaming language) and ways to mediate
justifiable complaints.

I watch the Tiobe index a lot and it has affected my decisions but I am
wondering how valid it is. Even if it is not valid it's probably a force
we have to deal with. As of October 2009 Lua is at position 20.

Ruby was no where before Rails but I don't believe the language changed
so much, people just discovered it once they saw it's usefulness in one
application. Now Ruby has momentum and I bet it would still be popular
without Rails. It seems like programmers may have a herding instinct and
just want to follow the pack. This could work against Lua.

It looks like the Delphi community has intentional manipulated Tiobe,
please see:

http://blog.timbunce.org/2009/05/17/tiobe-index-is-being-gamed/

The call went out to put "Delphi programming on every page in visible
text (update the template). Stand up and be counted" and it worked and
Tiobe congratulated them for it apparently. Do we need to do the same?
Or should we educate people about the dangers of Tiobe's methodology?
Doing nothing might not be a good idea.

-Patrick

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Re: promoting Lua

Gavin Wraith
In message <[hidden email]> you wrote:

> Lua sucks actually comes up with few results and the complaints are
> rather silly but still I was thinking about registering luasucks.org or
> something similar. I was thinking it might be helpful to try to "own"
> this keyword and displace others on the net.

Nice idea. I remember seeing a website that organized programming languages
not by positive ancestry ("good feature - let us have that!") but by
negative ("ugh - how can we cure that nastiness!"). I foolishly forgot to note
the URL. So if anybody knows it, please post. Thanks.

--
Gavin Wraith ([hidden email])
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/
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Re: promoting Lua

Andrew Wilson-4
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
Hi Patrick,

Tutorials are a great way to promote Lua.

I believe Ruby on Rail filled a need so adding something you find
useful to a lua library or lua  is certainly a good way to promote
lua.

LuaForge is currently being redesigned
http://groups.google.com/group/luaforge-development that should help
promote lua.

Maybe luadoesnotsuck.org ??

Cheers
Andrew




On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Patrick
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> As I was saying I am new to Lua and I have not finished with the basics
> but again I am already in love with it. Once I am competent I would like
> to start promoting the language and I was wondering what would be best.
>
> I thought I could do some screencast tutorials.
>
> When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
> did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc. BTW this also works
> well with hosting providers to dig up dirt.
>
> Lua sucks actually comes up with few results and the complaints are
> rather silly but still I was thinking about registering luasucks.org or
> something similar. I was thinking it might be helpful to try to "own"
> this keyword and displace others on the net. It could be a place to
> dispel myths about Lua(I.E it's a gaming language) and ways to mediate
> justifiable complaints.
>
> I watch the Tiobe index a lot and it has affected my decisions but I am
> wondering how valid it is. Even if it is not valid it's probably a force
> we have to deal with. As of October 2009 Lua is at position 20.
>
> Ruby was no where before Rails but I don't believe the language changed
> so much, people just discovered it once they saw it's usefulness in one
> application. Now Ruby has momentum and I bet it would still be popular
> without Rails. It seems like programmers may have a herding instinct and
> just want to follow the pack. This could work against Lua.
>
> It looks like the Delphi community has intentional manipulated Tiobe,
> please see:
>
> http://blog.timbunce.org/2009/05/17/tiobe-index-is-being-gamed/
>
> The call went out to put "Delphi programming on every page in visible
> text (update the template). Stand up and be counted" and it worked and
> Tiobe congratulated them for it apparently. Do we need to do the same?
> Or should we educate people about the dangers of Tiobe's methodology?
> Doing nothing might not be a good idea.
>
> -Patrick
>
>
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Re: promoting Lua

Asko Kauppi
Luasucksless.org ? :)

One thing that would be so nice to have is optional typing. I think  
Python 3 has that (correct if I'm wrong). And C# has something  
similar, coming from the other direction.

Lua with optional static type checking would expand the use of the  
language much. And we've shown it can be done.

- asko

On 29.10.2009, at 18.58, Andrew Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
>
> Tutorials are a great way to promote Lua.
>
> I believe Ruby on Rail filled a need so adding something you find
> useful to a lua library or lua  is certainly a good way to promote
> lua.
>
> LuaForge is currently being redesigned
> http://groups.google.com/group/luaforge-development that should help
> promote lua.
>
> Maybe luadoesnotsuck.org ??
>
> Cheers
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Patrick
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As I was saying I am new to Lua and I have not finished with the  
>> basics
>> but again I am already in love with it. Once I am competent I would  
>> like
>> to start promoting the language and I was wondering what would be  
>> best.
>>
>> I thought I could do some screencast tutorials.
>>
>> When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first  
>> things I
>> did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc. BTW this also  
>> works
>> well with hosting providers to dig up dirt.
>>
>> Lua sucks actually comes up with few results and the complaints are
>> rather silly but still I was thinking about registering  
>> luasucks.org or
>> something similar. I was thinking it might be helpful to try to "own"
>> this keyword and displace others on the net. It could be a place to
>> dispel myths about Lua(I.E it's a gaming language) and ways to  
>> mediate
>> justifiable complaints.
>>
>> I watch the Tiobe index a lot and it has affected my decisions but  
>> I am
>> wondering how valid it is. Even if it is not valid it's probably a  
>> force
>> we have to deal with. As of October 2009 Lua is at position 20.
>>
>> Ruby was no where before Rails but I don't believe the language  
>> changed
>> so much, people just discovered it once they saw it's usefulness in  
>> one
>> application. Now Ruby has momentum and I bet it would still be  
>> popular
>> without Rails. It seems like programmers may have a herding  
>> instinct and
>> just want to follow the pack. This could work against Lua.
>>
>> It looks like the Delphi community has intentional manipulated Tiobe,
>> please see:
>>
>> http://blog.timbunce.org/2009/05/17/tiobe-index-is-being-gamed/
>>
>> The call went out to put "Delphi programming on every page in visible
>> text (update the template). Stand up and be counted" and it worked  
>> and
>> Tiobe congratulated them for it apparently. Do we need to do the  
>> same?
>> Or should we educate people about the dangers of Tiobe's methodology?
>> Doing nothing might not be a good idea.
>>
>> -Patrick
>>
>>
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Re: promoting Lua

steve donovan
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Asko Kauppi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One thing that would be so nice to have is optional typing. I think Python 3
> has that (correct if I'm wrong).

It seems to be done through decorators, and it looks like an
assertion-at-runtime kind of thing.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1275646/python-3-and-static-typing

> And C# has something similar, coming from the other direction.

Yes, 'var ls = new List<MyDamnLongType>()', wrist-saving
type-inference. Still considered spawn of the devil in the Java world.

Metalua has an extension which does something like the Python example.

Though, would Lua be Lua if it had static typing, in the sense of
something that could be checked at compile time?

steve d.
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Re: promoting Lua

Javier Guerra Giraldez
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Patrick
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> The call went out to put "Delphi programming on every page in visible
> text (update the template). Stand up and be counted"

after reading TIOBE's methodology, i changed the tags on my blog from
"Lua" and "Programming" to "Lua Programming".  just adding my grain of
sand; but i haven't posted there for a looong time...


--
Javier
http://javier.guerrag.com
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Re: promoting Lua

Javier Guerra Giraldez
In reply to this post by Asko Kauppi
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Asko Kauppi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Luasucksless.org ? :)

+1

--
Javier
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Re: promoting Lua

Norman Clarke
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Patrick
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> As I was saying I am new to Lua and I have not finished with the basics
> but again I am already in love with it. Once I am competent I would like
> to start promoting the language and I was wondering what would be best.
>
> I thought I could do some screencast tutorials.

I actually bought the domain names luacasts.org, luacasts.com and
"luanatics.com" (yeah, silly name I know) about a year ago, with the
intention of doing something similar. Then I became busy with other
things and never followed through. If you're interested in the topic
perhaps we can find some way to work together.

Regards,

Norman
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Re: promoting Lua

Jim Whitehead II
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Norman Clarke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Patrick
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> As I was saying I am new to Lua and I have not finished with the basics
>> but again I am already in love with it. Once I am competent I would like
>> to start promoting the language and I was wondering what would be best.
>>
>> I thought I could do some screencast tutorials.
>
> I actually bought the domain names luacasts.org, luacasts.com and
> "luanatics.com" (yeah, silly name I know) about a year ago, with the
> intention of doing something similar. Then I became busy with other
> things and never followed through. If you're interested in the topic
> perhaps we can find some way to work together.

I own http://trylua.net as well =)

- Jim
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Re: promoting Lua

Fernando Paredes García
In reply to this post by Javier Guerra Giraldez
+1

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Javier Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Asko Kauppi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Luasucksless.org ? :)

+1

--
Javier



--
Fernando P. García, http://www.develcuy.com
Developer - Analista de Sistemas
+51 1 9 8991 7871, Calle Santa Catalina Ancha #377, Cusco -Perú

** Antes de imprimir este mensaje piensa en tu compromiso con el medio ambiente, protegerlo depende de tí.
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Re: promoting Lua

Philippe Lhoste
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
On 29/10/2009 13:54, Patrick wrote:
> When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
> did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc.

I fear I haven't seen the interest. Can you expand a bit?

> Lua sucks actually comes up with few results

Can be because the language is great... or because it has too few users!
I prefer to think it is for the former reason... :-)
Looks a bit like language comparison based on number of tags in StackOverflow: are they
numerous because they are popular? Or because they are problematic! :-D

> the complaints are
> rather silly

A quite common one is "this language sucks because it doesn't use soft braces {}"...
People are too used to C/C++/C#/Java/JavaScript/Perl... :-)
I still think having a flexible mind is a quality for a programmer... ;-)

--
Philippe Lhoste
--  (near) Paris -- France
--  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --

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Re: promoting Lua

Patrick Mc(avery
> When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
> did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc.

I fear I haven't seen the interest. Can you expand a bit?


Hi Philippe

I totally understand if this was confusing. I want to promote Lua so why
luasucks.org?? I would like to make sure that search results will bring
up my site rather then someone who actually does not like Lua. My site
could deal with any complaints in a productive way and help to stop
misunderstandings not increase them.

I was using IX Web hosting but I found terrible issue when I searched
for IX Web hosting sucks, issues I confirmed as real. I have also found
significant issues with PHP and Python this way. I guess if you want to
use a tool you really should know what not to use it for as well as
knowing what to use it for.

Hope this helps-Patrick





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Re: promoting Lua

Matthew M. Burke
In reply to this post by Jim Whitehead II
Jim Whitehead II wrote:
> I own http://trylua.net as well =)
>
>  
If we're all coming clean, I should fess up to luaquiz.com.  Which will
have some real content, real soon now...

Matt



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Re: promoting Lua

Gavin Wraith
In reply to this post by Patrick Mc(avery
In message <[hidden email]> you wrote:

> > When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
> > did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc.
>
> I fear I haven't seen the interest. Can you expand a bit?

Does the usage "xxx sucks", which I presume was coined in the USA,
mean "I like xxx" or "I do not like xxx"? For most of my life "to suck"
meant in English what Latin "sugere" meant, and it had no pejorative
or sexual connotation. I presume that the recent usage means what Latin
"irrumare" meant. Latin has two advantages over English: 1) it is
unnecessary to invent new words in it to describe sexual acts, as
it already has a sufficiency of them, and 2) it is impossible to invent
new words in it because outside the Vatican it is dead.

--
Gavin Wraith ([hidden email])
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/
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Re: promoting Lua

Jim Whitehead II
In reply to this post by Matthew M. Burke
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Matthew Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Jim Whitehead II wrote:
>>
>> I own http://trylua.net as well =)
>
> If we're all coming clean, I should fess up to luaquiz.com.  Which will have
> some real content, real soon now...

Soon(tm) =)

- Jim
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Re: promoting Lua

Norman Clarke
In reply to this post by Gavin Wraith
On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Gavin Wraith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In message <[hidden email]> you wrote:
>
>> > When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
>> > did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc.
>>
>> I fear I haven't seen the interest. Can you expand a bit?
>
> Does the usage "xxx sucks", which I presume was coined in the USA,
> mean "I like xxx" or "I do not like xxx"? For most of my life "to suck"
> meant in English what Latin "sugere" meant, and it had no pejorative
> or sexual connotation. I presume that the recent usage means what Latin
> "irrumare" meant. Latin has two advantages over English: 1) it is
> unnecessary to invent new words in it to describe sexual acts, as
> it already has a sufficiency of them, and 2) it is impossible to invent
> new words in it because outside the Vatican it is dead.

I don't know where it was coined, but in American English it
essentially means you consider something to be bad. It originally had
a sexual connotation which I think is mostly forgotten now, though
it's a phrase which more careful speakers still won't use in polite
company.
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Re: promoting Lua

Elias Barrionovo
In reply to this post by Gavin Wraith
The usage "aaa sucks" (also commonly written on internet as "aaa sux") means "aaa is not good", "aaa is crap".  In other words, it expresses  a negative point of view.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Gavin Wraith <[hidden email]> wrote:
In message <[hidden email]> you wrote:

> > When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first things I
> > did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc.
>
> I fear I haven't seen the interest. Can you expand a bit?

Does the usage "xxx sucks", which I presume was coined in the USA,
mean "I like xxx" or "I do not like xxx"? For most of my life "to suck"
meant in English what Latin "sugere" meant, and it had no pejorative
or sexual connotation. I presume that the recent usage means what Latin
"irrumare" meant. Latin has two advantages over English: 1) it is
unnecessary to invent new words in it to describe sexual acts, as
it already has a sufficiency of them, and 2) it is impossible to invent
new words in it because outside the Vatican it is dead.

--
Gavin Wraith ([hidden email])
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/



--
NI!
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Re: promoting Lua

Phoenix Sol
In reply to this post by Norman Clarke


On Oct 29, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Norman Clarke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Gavin Wraith  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> In message <[hidden email]> you wrote:
>>
>>>> When I was learning PHP, Python and now C/C++, one of the first  
>>>> things I
>>>> did/do was search for Python sucks, PHP sucks etc.
>>>
>>> I fear I haven't seen the interest. Can you expand a bit?
>>
>> Does the usage "xxx sucks", which I presume was coined in the USA,
>> mean "I like xxx" or "I do not like xxx"? For most of my life "to  
>> suck"
>> meant in English what Latin "sugere" meant, and it had no pejorative
>> or sexual connotation. I presume that the recent usage means what  
>> Latin
>> "irrumare" meant. Latin has two advantages over English: 1) it is
>> unnecessary to invent new words in it to describe sexual acts, as
>> it already has a sufficiency of them, and 2) it is impossible to  
>> invent
>> new words in it because outside the Vatican it is dead.
>
> I don't know where it was coined, but in American English it
> essentially means you consider something to be bad. It originally had
> a sexual connotation which I think is mostly forgotten now, though
> it's a phrase which more careful speakers still won't use in polite
> company.

It does have a sexual connotation, and a very abusive one. I will  
spare you further elaboration. It's typical of the American gutter-
mentality, I'm afraid.


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Re: promoting Lua

Petite Abeille
In reply to this post by Elias Barrionovo

On Oct 29, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Elias Barrionovo wrote:

> The usage "aaa sucks" (also commonly written on internet as "aaa  
> sux") means
> "aaa is not good", "aaa is crap".  In other words, it expresses  a  
> negative
> point of view.

E.g. "Yeah, that sucks big time":

Usage example:

http://lasucksbigtime.blogspot.com/
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Re: promoting Lua

Petite Abeille
In reply to this post by Phoenix Sol

On Oct 29, 2009, at 9:11 PM, Phoenix Sol wrote:

> It's typical of the American gutter-mentality, I'm afraid.

"can do" attitude you meant to say?

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