lua.stackexchange.com?

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lua.stackexchange.com?

Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?
Would it be a good thing for the Lua community?

There are already many Lua questions in stackoverflow.com:
        http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
        http://stackoverflow.com/tags/lua/topusers

To have our own site, lua.stackexchange.com, we'd need a critical mass.
But it would allow us to reduce the traffic in lua-l to announcements
and discussions about the design and future of Lua.

It seems to be that the stackexchange model succeeds quite well as both
a forum for questions and answers and an archive.

I see the following good points:

- it allows questions and answers to be stored and be publicly available
  with permanent links

- it is easy to edit questions and answers using rich text

- the vote scheme naturally filters bad and wrong answers

- the reputation scheme identifies trustable members of the community

- the comments scheme for questions and answers helps to reduce noise
  of parallel conversations

- there is no need to expose email addresses

- spam seems to be a very minor problem

The only not so good point is that you need to visit the site to see the
questions and answers. I think it is possible to receive notifications via
RSS and probably by email. I don't know whether there is a gateway to
and from mailing listings or just email.

--lhf

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Owen Shepherd

Do we need a Lua stackexchange? There isn't a Python, Perl or Ruby stack exchange, for example

On 27 Apr 2013 20:30, "Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?
Would it be a good thing for the Lua community?

There are already many Lua questions in stackoverflow.com:
        http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
        http://stackoverflow.com/tags/lua/topusers

To have our own site, lua.stackexchange.com, we'd need a critical mass.
But it would allow us to reduce the traffic in lua-l to announcements
and discussions about the design and future of Lua.

It seems to be that the stackexchange model succeeds quite well as both
a forum for questions and answers and an archive.

I see the following good points:

- it allows questions and answers to be stored and be publicly available
  with permanent links

- it is easy to edit questions and answers using rich text

- the vote scheme naturally filters bad and wrong answers

- the reputation scheme identifies trustable members of the community

- the comments scheme for questions and answers helps to reduce noise
  of parallel conversations

- there is no need to expose email addresses

- spam seems to be a very minor problem

The only not so good point is that you need to visit the site to see the
questions and answers. I think it is possible to receive notifications via
RSS and probably by email. I don't know whether there is a gateway to
and from mailing listings or just email.

--lhf

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Ralph Hempel-2
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo wrote:
> Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?
> Would it be a good thing for the Lua community?

...

> The only not so good point is that you need to visit the site to see the
> questions and answers. I think it is possible to receive notifications via
> RSS and probably by email. I don't know whether there is a gateway to
> and from mailing listings or just email.

Which makes it a complete non-starter for me. Plus you want to be in
control of the list data. What happens if/when stackexchange goes away?

I love the convenience of having lua-l emails, and I find going to a
browser based forum slow, cumbersome, and much less useful when I need
to mine the emails for an old discussion.

Do you still have all the archived conversations?

Running a mail list is a pain, but you own the data so that if you ever
want to migrate it, or archive it, you have all of it on your own
server. (As long as it's backed up :-))

Ralph

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul Hudson-2



On 27 April 2013 21:00, Ralph Hempel <[hidden email]> wrote:


Which makes it a complete non-starter for me. Plus you want to be in control of the list data. What happens if/when stackexchange goes away?

You use the latest data dump from the site: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/category/cc-wiki-dump/

But to me the main reason not to is there is nothing to gain from having a separate site. Tags work for stackoverflow.com if you only want to see lua-related questions, and if there were separate sites for different technologies, it would be unclear where to post a question that involved more than one (like pretty much all of the "lua binding to XXX" discussions here - do they go in the lua stackexchange or the XXX one? Better not to have to decide.
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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Tim Hill
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
I suppose I think there is room for both. Something like stack exchange can decrease the repetition (how many more local vs global threads will we see?). But at the same time it's harder to get the inter-activity that the mail list gives.

Why not start stack exchange and see if it takes off?

--Tim

On Apr 27, 2013, at 12:29 PM, Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?
> Would it be a good thing for the Lua community?
>
> There are already many Lua questions in stackoverflow.com:
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
> http://stackoverflow.com/tags/lua/topusers
>
> To have our own site, lua.stackexchange.com, we'd need a critical mass.
> But it would allow us to reduce the traffic in lua-l to announcements
> and discussions about the design and future of Lua.
>
> It seems to be that the stackexchange model succeeds quite well as both
> a forum for questions and answers and an archive.
>
> I see the following good points:
>
> - it allows questions and answers to be stored and be publicly available
>  with permanent links
>
> - it is easy to edit questions and answers using rich text
>
> - the vote scheme naturally filters bad and wrong answers
>
> - the reputation scheme identifies trustable members of the community
>
> - the comments scheme for questions and answers helps to reduce noise
>  of parallel conversations
>
> - there is no need to expose email addresses
>
> - spam seems to be a very minor problem
>
> The only not so good point is that you need to visit the site to see the
> questions and answers. I think it is possible to receive notifications via
> RSS and probably by email. I don't know whether there is a gateway to
> and from mailing listings or just email.
>
> --lhf
>


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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul E. Merrell, J.D.
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> But it would allow us to reduce the traffic in lua-l to announcements
> and discussions about the design and future of Lua.

That could be accomplished by beginning a new mailing list for the
purpose. "l-lua-dev"?

Best regards,

Paul

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

William Ahern
In reply to this post by Tim Hill
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 07:19:22PM -0700, Tim Hill wrote:
> I suppose I think there is room for both. Something like stack exchange can decrease the repetition (how many more local vs global threads will we see?). But at the same time it's harder to get the inter-activity that the mail list gives.
>
> Why not start stack exchange and see if it takes off?

Having been a nearly daily reader of comp.lang.c and comp.unix.programmer
for over a decade, I'm fairly confident that an easily accessible archive*
would prove fruitless at reducing duplicative questions or threads. It's in
the nature of the young (and the young at heart ;) to be impetuous--to ask
before thinking.

In any event, every once in awhile something novel is discussed, so it's not
enirely a waste of time.

- Bill


* Not that I believe stackexchange.com is any better than the existing lua-l
archives. If anything, I'd rather have an NNTP feed. As a web-based forum
I dislike stackexchange.com on principle.


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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Dirk Laurie-2
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
2013/4/27 Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo <[hidden email]>:

> To have our own site, lua.stackexchange.com, we'd need a critical mass.
> But it would allow us to reduce the traffic in lua-l to announcements
> and discussions about the design and future of Lua.

Current traffic is an average of about 25 new threads per week.
I find that acceptable.

One gripe: some posters fail to fork threads when the discussion is still
interesting but no longer on-topic. But that will happen on a stackexchange
forum too.

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul Hudson-2
 But that will happen on a stackexchange forum too.

It doesn't really happen so much on stackexchange (which isn't a forum - or at least not a discussion forum).  Questions tend to get mostly related answers and comments, extended discussions are discouraged (it's a Q&A site) and moderators can moderate :) more easily than a mailing list.

I like stackexchange - it's a model that works well. It's different from a mailing list and neither substitutes for the other.

Paul


On 28 April 2013 05:53, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
2013/4/27 Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo <[hidden email]>:

> To have our own site, lua.stackexchange.com, we'd need a critical mass.
> But it would allow us to reduce the traffic in lua-l to announcements
> and discussions about the design and future of Lua.

Current traffic is an average of about 25 new threads per week.
I find that acceptable.

One gripe: some posters fail to fork threads when the discussion is still
interesting but no longer on-topic. But that will happen on a stackexchange
forum too.


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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Zé
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
On 04/27/2013 08:29 PM, Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo wrote:
> Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?

Why on earth do you believe you need a site to ask questions about Lua,
if there's already an official Lua mailing list?

Not only would that solve no problem at all, it's also an appallingly
poor alternative to the well established mailing list it tries to replace.

--


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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Zé
In reply to this post by Paul Hudson-2
On 04/27/2013 09:14 PM, Paul Hudson wrote:
>
> But to me the main reason not to is there is nothing to gain from having
> a separate site.

Exactly.  There's already an official mailing list, which certainly will
live as long as Lua will.  There's no need to rely on a commercial
service, with all the privacy concerns and control issues that come
along with it, to be able to do exactly what this mailing list does, and
does very well.

--


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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul Hudson-2
There's no need to rely on a commercial service, with all the privacy concerns and control issues that come along with it, to be able to do exactly what this mailing list does, and does very well.

That's  not what I was saying. I think Stackoverflow is a valuable addition to the Lua mailing list. I was saying I didn't see any need for a separate Stackexchange site for Lua questions only. 

Stackoverflow does not do "exactly what this mailing list does".

Paul
 


On 28 April 2013 10:05, Zé <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04/27/2013 09:14 PM, Paul Hudson wrote:

But to me the main reason not to is there is nothing to gain from having
a separate site.

Exactly.  There's already an official mailing list, which certainly will live as long as Lua will.  There's no need to rely on a commercial service, with all the privacy concerns and control issues that come along with it, to be able to do exactly what this mailing list does, and does very well.

--



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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul E. Merrell, J.D.
In reply to this post by Zé
I do have some criticism of the existing list software. It sometimes
takes days before emails appear in the archive, which makes it
somewhat problematic to link to archived messages. I'd much prefer
that the list be migrated to nabble.com. Nabble provides a message's
permalink with every email it republishes.

Best regards,

Paul

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Michal Kottman-2
On 28 April 2013 11:22, marbux <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd much prefer that the list be migrated to nabble.com. Nabble provides a message's
permalink with every email it republishes.

Well, there already is a mirror of this list on Nabble, even for this thread [1].

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul E. Merrell, J.D.
On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 2:38 AM, Michal Kottman
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28 April 2013 11:22, marbux <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'd much prefer that the list be migrated to nabble.com. Nabble provides a
>> message's
>> permalink with every email it republishes.
>
> Well, there already is a mirror of this list on Nabble, even for this thread
> [1].
>
> [1] http://lua.2524044.n2.nabble.com/lua-stackexchange-com-td7648653.html

Right. But the messages do not show up on Nabble before they appear in
the lua-l archives, which is frequently delayed.

Paul

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul Hudson-2
In reply to this post by Zé
Not only would that solve no problem at all, it's also an appallingly poor alternative to the well established mailing list it tries to replace.

They're not substitutes and I don't see Luiz proposing to replace the maillist .

But people already use stackoverflow for Lua (3648 questions currerntly tagged Lua), so some people either feel it's better for some questions (I'm in this camp), or possibly aren't aware of the mailing list (clearly, I'm not in that camp :))

I think stackoverflow is a better place for questions that have a fairly definitive answer. This list is better for discussions. Stackoverflow does in practice handle better frequently asked questions (answers turn up more often in google, the site provides automatic searches for similar questions, and the self-moderation and usage patterns mean that people who do ask duplicates get redirected promptly to the previous questions and answers).


On 28 April 2013 10:00, Zé <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04/27/2013 08:29 PM, Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo wrote:
Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?

Why on earth do you believe you need a site to ask questions about Lua, if there's already an official Lua mailing list?

Not only would that solve no problem at all, it's also an appallingly poor alternative to the well established mailing list it tries to replace.

--



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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Martin Schröder-2
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
2013/4/27 Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo <[hidden email]>:
> Do you think we are ready for our own lua.stackexchange.com?

Like java.sx, cpp.sx, c.sx and js.sx?

Oh wait, these don't exist yet. Why?

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/49495/java
http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/51543/c-and-c

so.sx exists, so does area51.sx

Best
   Martin

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

GrayFace
In reply to this post by Paul Hudson-2
On 28.04.2013 14:23, Paul Hudson wrote:
> >  But that will happen on a stackexchange forum too.
>
> It doesn't really happen so much on stackexchange (which isn't a forum
> - or at least not a discussion forum).  Questions tend to get mostly
> related answers and comments, extended discussions are discouraged
> (it's a Q&A site) and moderators can moderate :) more easily than a
> mailing list.

That is a thing that makes me question it. Forking is a great aspect of
mailing lists that's missing on forums. On regular forums offtopic turns
topics into a mess. On stackoverflow I don't see offtopic. I'm a noob
there, so I don't know how things go with it, but I suspect that it's
not flourishing into new discussions as easily as on a mailing list.

In the list I don't see many questions on how to do stuff, which is what
stackoverflow seems to specialize on.
The push for stackexchange would
1) Split the community. I suspect there wouldn't be many people who
regularly post on both ..ehm..'forums'. Announcements on mailing list
won't reach stackexchange exclusive audience. I haven't seen
stackexchange used for announcements, but posting announcements there as
well as on the list might be an option.
2) Drive some new people to the community, on stackexchange side.

BTW, another option is to put a link to
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua as one of places for
discussion on the Lua site.


--
Best regards,
Sergey Rozhenko                 mailto:[hidden email]


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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Paul Hudson-2


On 28 April 2013 20:22, GrayFace <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
That is a thing that makes me question it. Forking is a great aspect of mailing lists that's missing on forums. On regular forums offtopic turns topics into a mess. On stackoverflow I don't see offtopic. I'm a noob there, so I don't know how things go with it, but I suspect that it's not flourishing into new discussions as easily as on a mailing list.

No, it doesn't. But you  - like others in this thread - seem to be assuming it's StackOverflow XOR mailing-list, and it's not. It's Stackoverflow AND mailing-liust

Each have pros and cons

1) Split the community. I suspect there wouldn't be many people who regularly post on both ..ehm..'forums'.

I wouldn't bet on it. I'm a single-data-point for the opposite. And Lua questions already exist on SO, so the split, if it was to happen, has happened (and there's nothing much that can be done about that, since you can't stop lua questions on SO - not that there is any reason to do so).
 
Announcements on mailing list won't reach stackexchange exclusive audience. I haven't seen stackexchange used for announcements, but posting announcements there as well as on the list might be an option.

Nope. Stackoverflow isn't for that. It makes me think that many of the people objecting to StackOverflow don't actually know much about it... Annoucements belong on the list. Stackoverflow isn't a replacement for a language's mailing list and doesn't try to be. It's a Q&A site.
 
2) Drive some new people to the community, on stackexchange side.

Unlikely that creating a lua.stackexchange.com would do that. Having more people from this list also imvolved on the main StackOverflow would (in my opinion) be  a plus.

BTW, another option is to put a link to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua as one of places for discussion on the Lua site.

That's a good idea.

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Re: lua.stackexchange.com?

Zé
In reply to this post by Paul Hudson-2
On 04/28/2013 08:23 AM, Paul Hudson wrote:
>
> It doesn't really happen so much on stackexchange (which isn't a forum

It is a forum.  It's a moderated forum which heavily censors comments
deemed off topic.  For example, in stackexchange you would never have
this discussion, because it would be quickly censored.

-
> or at least not a discussion forum).  Questions tend to get mostly
> related answers and comments

They get all sorts of answers, but they heavily censor comments deemed
off topic.  That's why you only see the comments which passed through
the sieve of the forum's censors.

If you rummage through this forum's archive you will notice that people
post technical questions and they do receive technical answers, which
are generally very informative.  What does stackexchange bring to the
table?  Nothing.  Only censorship.

--


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