iWhatever Development

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iWhatever Development

John Passaniti-2
I've decided that the world needs more iPhone/iPod/iPad applications.
It's a new platform for me, and while Objective-C looks to be a fine
language, I would rather code in Lua and get all the standard benefits
that I don't have to explain to anyone on this mailing list.

The folks at Ansca offer Corona, and it looks like it will do 90% of
what I want-- it's the other 10% that worries me.  It appears that
Corona doesn't just provide wrappers around Apple's APIs, but adds
functionality.  And it looks great-- except that there are APIs I need
to access from my application that Corona doesn't offer.  And normally
that wouldn't be a problem-- I would just write a Lua wrapper around
the API.  I don't think Apple allows dynamic loading of modules, but I
could certainly statically bind my wrappers to the application and
register them.  No problem.

Well, apparently there is a problem.  I haven't tried it yet, but it
appears that development with Corona works by compiling your Lua
scripts, binding them to a Lua interpreter, and linking against
Apple's APIs.  Or something like that.  My guess is that I wouldn't
have any problem writing the wrapper and even telling the linker to
include my code-- but how would I register my wrapper with Lua?  That,
I guess, is the problem.

It doesn't sound like a hard problem to overcome.  Couldn't they just
provide a hook function that called any user-provided code with a Lua
state?

Maybe someone who has used Corona can comment.  Maybe I'll learn that
it's a much harder problem.  Or maybe, someone has found a way around
this so that I can happily send my $99 to them and bask in the glow of
Lua on my iWhatever.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Rena
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 15:52, John Passaniti <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've decided that the world needs more iPhone/iPod/iPad applications.
> It's a new platform for me, and while Objective-C looks to be a fine
> language, I would rather code in Lua and get all the standard benefits
> that I don't have to explain to anyone on this mailing list.
>
> The folks at Ansca offer Corona, and it looks like it will do 90% of
> what I want-- it's the other 10% that worries me.  It appears that
> Corona doesn't just provide wrappers around Apple's APIs, but adds
> functionality.  And it looks great-- except that there are APIs I need
> to access from my application that Corona doesn't offer.  And normally
> that wouldn't be a problem-- I would just write a Lua wrapper around
> the API.  I don't think Apple allows dynamic loading of modules, but I
> could certainly statically bind my wrappers to the application and
> register them.  No problem.
>
> Well, apparently there is a problem.  I haven't tried it yet, but it
> appears that development with Corona works by compiling your Lua
> scripts, binding them to a Lua interpreter, and linking against
> Apple's APIs.  Or something like that.  My guess is that I wouldn't
> have any problem writing the wrapper and even telling the linker to
> include my code-- but how would I register my wrapper with Lua?  That,
> I guess, is the problem.
>
> It doesn't sound like a hard problem to overcome.  Couldn't they just
> provide a hook function that called any user-provided code with a Lua
> state?
>
> Maybe someone who has used Corona can comment.  Maybe I'll learn that
> it's a much harder problem.  Or maybe, someone has found a way around
> this so that I can happily send my $99 to them and bask in the glow of
> Lua on my iWhatever.
>

Apple is still being uppity about interpreted code. Last I checked
you'd need to actually ask their permission to do anything like that,
and I can't see them approving an app that lets the users run their
own code without paying for the developer program.

Might I suggest Android instead? *ducks*

--
Sent from my toaster.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Louis-Philippe
by the way...
the developper program is free, anyone who will can do

2010/6/11 HyperHacker <[hidden email]>
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 15:52, John Passaniti <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've decided that the world needs more iPhone/iPod/iPad applications.
> It's a new platform for me, and while Objective-C looks to be a fine
> language, I would rather code in Lua and get all the standard benefits
> that I don't have to explain to anyone on this mailing list.
>
> The folks at Ansca offer Corona, and it looks like it will do 90% of
> what I want-- it's the other 10% that worries me.  It appears that
> Corona doesn't just provide wrappers around Apple's APIs, but adds
> functionality.  And it looks great-- except that there are APIs I need
> to access from my application that Corona doesn't offer.  And normally
> that wouldn't be a problem-- I would just write a Lua wrapper around
> the API.  I don't think Apple allows dynamic loading of modules, but I
> could certainly statically bind my wrappers to the application and
> register them.  No problem.
>
> Well, apparently there is a problem.  I haven't tried it yet, but it
> appears that development with Corona works by compiling your Lua
> scripts, binding them to a Lua interpreter, and linking against
> Apple's APIs.  Or something like that.  My guess is that I wouldn't
> have any problem writing the wrapper and even telling the linker to
> include my code-- but how would I register my wrapper with Lua?  That,
> I guess, is the problem.
>
> It doesn't sound like a hard problem to overcome.  Couldn't they just
> provide a hook function that called any user-provided code with a Lua
> state?
>
> Maybe someone who has used Corona can comment.  Maybe I'll learn that
> it's a much harder problem.  Or maybe, someone has found a way around
> this so that I can happily send my $99 to them and bask in the glow of
> Lua on my iWhatever.
>

Apple is still being uppity about interpreted code. Last I checked
you'd need to actually ask their permission to do anything like that,
and I can't see them approving an app that lets the users run their
own code without paying for the developer program.

Might I suggest Android instead? *ducks*

--
Sent from my toaster.

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Re: iWhatever Development

Louis-Philippe
about extending corona:

from: http://developer.anscamobile.com/forum/2010/04/08/os-40-and-corona-sdk

"This raises an excellent question: what should be the Corona philosophy? In other words, if you are a skilled enough programmer to handle the microphone API, or extend the Corona internals, is there an advantage to you in using Corona? This is meant as a point for further discussion, as there are pros and cons either way. I'd like to hear your views."


2010/6/11 Louis-Philippe <[hidden email]>
by the way...
the developper program is free, anyone who will can do

2010/6/11 HyperHacker <[hidden email]>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 15:52, John Passaniti <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've decided that the world needs more iPhone/iPod/iPad applications.
> It's a new platform for me, and while Objective-C looks to be a fine
> language, I would rather code in Lua and get all the standard benefits
> that I don't have to explain to anyone on this mailing list.
>
> The folks at Ansca offer Corona, and it looks like it will do 90% of
> what I want-- it's the other 10% that worries me.  It appears that
> Corona doesn't just provide wrappers around Apple's APIs, but adds
> functionality.  And it looks great-- except that there are APIs I need
> to access from my application that Corona doesn't offer.  And normally
> that wouldn't be a problem-- I would just write a Lua wrapper around
> the API.  I don't think Apple allows dynamic loading of modules, but I
> could certainly statically bind my wrappers to the application and
> register them.  No problem.
>
> Well, apparently there is a problem.  I haven't tried it yet, but it
> appears that development with Corona works by compiling your Lua
> scripts, binding them to a Lua interpreter, and linking against
> Apple's APIs.  Or something like that.  My guess is that I wouldn't
> have any problem writing the wrapper and even telling the linker to
> include my code-- but how would I register my wrapper with Lua?  That,
> I guess, is the problem.
>
> It doesn't sound like a hard problem to overcome.  Couldn't they just
> provide a hook function that called any user-provided code with a Lua
> state?
>
> Maybe someone who has used Corona can comment.  Maybe I'll learn that
> it's a much harder problem.  Or maybe, someone has found a way around
> this so that I can happily send my $99 to them and bask in the glow of
> Lua on my iWhatever.
>

Apple is still being uppity about interpreted code. Last I checked
you'd need to actually ask their permission to do anything like that,
and I can't see them approving an app that lets the users run their
own code without paying for the developer program.

Might I suggest Android instead? *ducks*

--
Sent from my toaster.


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Re: iWhatever Development

John Passaniti-2
In reply to this post by Rena
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 6:58 PM, HyperHacker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Apple is still being uppity about interpreted code. Last I checked
> you'd need to actually ask their permission to do anything like that,
> and I can't see them approving an app that lets the users run their
> own code without paying for the developer program.

This has been debated back and forth.  Apple's ambiguity on the matter
continues to be a great way to waste lots of time and effort
discussing what could be and what should be.  I'm a little more
pragmatic, and focus more on what is.  And the fact is that there are
Lua-based applications right now being sold by Apple, and even
promoted on stage by Steve Jobs is all I need to know.  If I have to
"ask permission" then I'll gladly do so in order to gain access to
that market, then I have no problem doing that.  Sorry to be driven by
filthy lucre, but the cat food isn't buying itself.

> Might I suggest Android instead? *ducks*

You can certainly suggest it.  And once I have some Android hardware
and see the kind of infrastructure and marketplace that Apple has
built available for Android, I'll be more than happy to target those
devices.  Indeed, Corona can also target Android, and that's a strong
motivator for me to consider developing in Lua for Corona.  But if I
can't get access to Apple's APIs with Corona for iWhatever platforms,
I can't see getting access to Android's native APIs either.

So before this conversation completely derails into a discussion about
the merits of Android verses Apple's platforms, how about we return to
the central question I had-- which is how to get access to the
platform's APIs from Corona.  Thanks.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Alexander Gladysh
In reply to this post by John Passaniti-2
> The folks at Ansca offer Corona, and it looks like it will do 90% of
> what I want-- it's the other 10% that worries me.  It appears that
> Corona doesn't just provide wrappers around Apple's APIs, but adds
> functionality.  And it looks great-- except that there are APIs I need
> to access from my application that Corona doesn't offer.

BTW, Have you seen iPhone Wax?

http://github.com/probablycorey/wax#readme

HTH,
Alexander.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Joshua Jensen
  ----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander Gladysh
Date: 6/11/2010 5:47 PM
>> The folks at Ansca offer Corona, and it looks like it will do 90% of
>> what I want-- it's the other 10% that worries me.  It appears that
>> Corona doesn't just provide wrappers around Apple's APIs, but adds
>> functionality.  And it looks great-- except that there are APIs I need
>> to access from my application that Corona doesn't offer.
> BTW, Have you seen iPhone Wax?
>
> http://github.com/probablycorey/wax#readme
I would be 99.9% certain Apple wouldn't allow an iPhone Wax-based
application.

Josh
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Re: iWhatever Development

John Passaniti-2
In reply to this post by Louis-Philippe
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Louis-Philippe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> about extending corona:
> from: http://developer.anscamobile.com/forum/2010/04/08/os-40-and-corona-sdk
> "This raises an excellent question: what should be the Corona philosophy? In
> other words, if you are a skilled enough programmer to handle the microphone
> API, or extend the Corona internals, is there an advantage to you in using
> Corona? This is meant as a point for further discussion, as there are pros
> and cons either way. I'd like to hear your views."

Here is my view.

Corona is interesting to me because it *isn't* just a wrapper around
the Apple APIs.  What they have is an abstraction layer that insulates
the programmer from the slings and arrows of both the iWhatever and
Android platforms.  And as I'm new to both iWhatever and Android
platforms, I see it as tremendously valuable that I don't have to go
through the same painful discovery process in not only porting Lua to
the platform, but coming up with nice abstraction layer for the UI,
media, and other services.  That to me is 90% of what my application
will need, and why I have an interest in Corona.  I see that for $99,
I can leverage the experience of others on platforms that are new to
me.  What's not to love?

But in my applications, also I need access to the underlying
platform's APIs.  My ideas for applications simply can't be done
without them.  Now I could certainly code the whole thing natively in
Objective C and have access to everything.  But that takes me down a
road of reinventing the wheel that Corona already has.  And their
wheel is nice.  My initial wheel is likely to be wobbly.

The thread you posted has one of the Ansca people saying that there
are "significant support issues" for making Corona extensible.  I
can't see why.  They can offer the hook(s) I want and say, "if you use
this, you're on your own."  That would be perfectly acceptable.
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Re: iWhatever Development

John Passaniti-2
In reply to this post by Alexander Gladysh
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Alexander Gladysh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> BTW, Have you seen iPhone Wax?

I've seen it, but it doesn't seem mature enough for production use.
If I'm wrong, and there are actually significant iWhatever
applications out there (no proof of concept enhanced "hello world"
examples), I'll gladly reconsider and give it a closer look.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Matthew M. Burke
John Passaniti wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Alexander Gladysh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> BTW, Have you seen iPhone Wax?
>>    
>
> I've seen it, but it doesn't seem mature enough for production use.
> If I'm wrong, and there are actually significant iWhatever
> applications out there (no proof of concept enhanced "hello world"
> examples), I'll gladly reconsider and give it a closer look.
>
>  
Actually it's quite mature and quite stable.  And there are several apps
in the app store built with Wax.  Corey has released several apps
himself including one which pulls and displays apartment listings from
San Francisco Craigslist (IIRC).  Ask on the google group for more details.

Matt

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Re: iWhatever Development

Fernando Paredes García
Forget about Apple stuff, why don't we just invest in Android instead?

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Matthew M. Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
John Passaniti wrote:
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Alexander Gladysh <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
BTW, Have you seen iPhone Wax?
   

I've seen it, but it doesn't seem mature enough for production use.
If I'm wrong, and there are actually significant iWhatever
applications out there (no proof of concept enhanced "hello world"
examples), I'll gladly reconsider and give it a closer look.

 
Actually it's quite mature and quite stable.  And there are several apps in the app store built with Wax.  Corey has released several apps himself including one which pulls and displays apartment listings from San Francisco Craigslist (IIRC).  Ask on the google group for more details.

Matt




--
Fernando P. García, http://www.develcuy.com
+51 1 9 8991 7871, Calle Santa Catalina Ancha #377, Cusco - Perú

** Before printing this message, please consider your commitment with the environment, taking care of it depends on you.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Joshua Jensen
In reply to this post by Matthew M. Burke
  ----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew M. Burke
Date: 6/11/2010 9:02 PM

> John Passaniti wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Alexander Gladysh
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> BTW, Have you seen iPhone Wax?
>> I've seen it, but it doesn't seem mature enough for production use.
>> If I'm wrong, and there are actually significant iWhatever
>> applications out there (no proof of concept enhanced "hello world"
>> examples), I'll gladly reconsider and give it a closer look.
> Actually it's quite mature and quite stable.  And there are several
> apps in the app store built with Wax.  Corey has released several apps
> himself including one which pulls and displays apartment listings from
> San Francisco Craigslist (IIRC).  Ask on the google group for more
> details.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wax lets me directly call ANY of the
Objective C APIs from Lua without wrapping them (incredibly cool, of
course).  That means I can have the iPhone Wax shell application and all
API calls are made by the included scripts.  If those scripts can be
modified after ship (downloads, other means), then hackers could
completely replace an iPhone Wax application's contents with their own.

This is why I have a hard time believing Apple would accept any new
iPhone Wax application under the new 3.3.# clauses.

Josh
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Re: iWhatever Development

Philippe Lhoste
In reply to this post by Louis-Philippe
On 12/06/2010 01:22, Louis-Philippe wrote:
> by the way...
> the developper program is free, anyone who will can do

Which one? You top-answer, you don't trim quotes, it is hard to know
what you answer to.

--
Philippe Lhoste
--  (near) Paris -- France
--  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --

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Re: iWhatever Development

Rena
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 10:45, Philippe Lhoste <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/06/2010 01:22, Louis-Philippe wrote:
>>
>> by the way...
>> the developper program is free, anyone who will can do
>
> Which one? You top-answer, you don't trim quotes, it is hard to know what
> you answer to.
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> --  (near) Paris -- France
> --  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --
>
>

I assume he meant to reply to me saying the iPhone dev program cost
$99/year. If that's changed, it's news to me.

--
Sent from my toaster.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Louis-Philippe
I believe only corona cost 99$... for the compilation service and else they are providing.

for the apple iphone dev, its free to get all the tools and sdk...  and correct me if i'm wrong, but I think submitting an app is free and you only pay apple money for selling the app if you sell it, i.e. free apps don't cause any fees

2010/6/12 HyperHacker <[hidden email]>
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 10:45, Philippe Lhoste <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/06/2010 01:22, Louis-Philippe wrote:
>>
>> by the way...
>> the developper program is free, anyone who will can do
>
> Which one? You top-answer, you don't trim quotes, it is hard to know what
> you answer to.
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> --  (near) Paris -- France
> --  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --
>
>

I assume he meant to reply to me saying the iPhone dev program cost
$99/year. If that's changed, it's news to me.

--
Sent from my toaster.

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Re: iWhatever Development

Matthew M. Burke
Louis-Philippe wrote:
> for the apple iphone dev, its free to get all the tools and sdk...  and
> correct me if i'm wrong, but I think submitting an app is free and you only
> pay apple money for selling the app if you sell it, i.e. free apps don't
> cause any fees
>
>  
That is incorrect.

Submitting any app to the app store, whether a free app or a paid app,
requires a developer's license which currently costs $99/year.  
Moreover, without a developer's license, you cannot install software
you've written ON YOUR OWN IPHONE (sorry for shouting...).

So just to be clear....you can download and install paid and free apps
from the app store without a developer's license, but you cannot write
software with Xcode and the free SDK and install them on an iphone (even
yours) without a developer's license.  Note this also applies to
Corona.  If you want your Corona app on your iphone you need to pay
Corona $99 (per year) AND Apple $99 (per year).


Matt

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Re: iWhatever Development

Rena
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 18:55, Matthew M. Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Louis-Philippe wrote:
>>
>> for the apple iphone dev, its free to get all the tools and sdk...  and
>> correct me if i'm wrong, but I think submitting an app is free and you
>> only
>> pay apple money for selling the app if you sell it, i.e. free apps don't
>> cause any fees
>>
>>
>
> That is incorrect.
>
> Submitting any app to the app store, whether a free app or a paid app,
> requires a developer's license which currently costs $99/year.  Moreover,
> without a developer's license, you cannot install software you've written ON
> YOUR OWN IPHONE (sorry for shouting...).
>
> So just to be clear....you can download and install paid and free apps from
> the app store without a developer's license, but you cannot write software
> with Xcode and the free SDK and install them on an iphone (even yours)
> without a developer's license.  Note this also applies to Corona.  If you
> want your Corona app on your iphone you need to pay Corona $99 (per year)
> AND Apple $99 (per year).
>
>
> Matt
>
>

Right, and an app that executes scripts which users can edit provides
a way to circumvent this restriction -> fat chance getting it
accepted. It's the same mentality that game console makers have had
since the NES.

--
Sent from my toaster.
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Re: iWhatever Development

Roberto Ierusalimschy
In reply to this post by John Passaniti-2
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 6:58 PM, HyperHacker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Apple is still being uppity about interpreted code. Last I checked
> > you'd need to actually ask their permission to do anything like that,
> > and I can't see them approving an app that lets the users run their
> > own code without paying for the developer program.
>
> This has been debated back and forth.  Apple's ambiguity on the matter
> continues to be a great way to waste lots of time and effort
> discussing what could be and what should be. [...]

This is way off topic, but I could not resist:

  Apple has censored a "Ulysses" comic book app [...] because of a
  picture of Buck Mulligan's stately, plump cartoon penis.

  http://www.fictioncircus.com/news.php?id=552&mode=one

-- Roberto
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Re: iWhatever Development

Philippe Lhoste
In reply to this post by Matthew M. Burke
On 13/06/2010 02:55, Matthew M. Burke wrote:
> Submitting any app to the app store, whether a free app or a paid app,
> requires a developer's license which currently costs $99/year. [...]
> If you want your Corona app on your iphone you need to pay Corona $99
> (per year) AND Apple $99 (per year).

Don't forget to add the price of a Mac if you haven't one already (was mandatory last time
I checked, ie. quite a while ago...) and of course the price of an iPhone...

--
Philippe Lhoste
--  (near) Paris -- France
--  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --

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Re: iWhatever Development

jose marin2
That raises a question again:

After a lot of investment in money and time, what's the chances of Apple refuse a Lua based game?

Regards.

Jose

--- Em seg, 14/6/10, Philippe Lhoste <[hidden email]> escreveu:

> De: Philippe Lhoste <[hidden email]>
> Assunto: Re: iWhatever Development
> Para: [hidden email]
> Data: Segunda-feira, 14 de Junho de 2010, 13:25
> On 13/06/2010 02:55, Matthew M. Burke
> wrote:
> > Submitting any app to the app store, whether a free
> app or a paid app,
> > requires a developer's license which currently costs
> $99/year. [...]
> > If you want your Corona app on your iphone you need to
> pay Corona $99
> > (per year) AND Apple $99 (per year).
>
> Don't forget to add the price of a Mac if you haven't one
> already (was mandatory last time I checked, ie. quite a
> while ago...) and of course the price of an iPhone...
>
> -- Philippe Lhoste
> --  (near) Paris -- France
> --  http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> --  --  --  --  --  -- 
> --  --  --  --  --  -- 
> --  --
>
>




12