We need a forum!

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We need a forum!

Michael Cumming-2
I have been mostly a passive subscriber to this list for the last year.
 
The volume of useful information that comes through this list is amazing.  And yet, it is lost to the email archives, making it difficult to search and retreive.  Threads are often broken and disconnected.  Valuable help and examples become lost like a needle in a hay stack.
 
We really need a forum!  Is there a reason (technical/cost/time) that this hasn't happened?  What can we lua users do to help?
 
Mike
 

<<winmail.dat>>

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Re: We need a forum!

Daniel Silverstone
Michael Cumming wrote:
We really need a forum!  Is there a reason (technical/cost/time) that this hasn't happened?  What can we lua users do to help?

We have the Wiki on http://lua-users.org/wiki/

I guess we should gather more info there.

D.

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Re: We need a forum!

Jason Murdick-2
A wiki is really not what Michael was suggesting, if I may be so bold as to
interpret his initial post.

He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB if I am not
mistaken.

I would have to agree with him. I'm not a big fan of mailing lists,
preferring discussion boards instead.

- Jason


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Silverstone" <[hidden email]>
To: "Lua list" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: We need a forum!


> Michael Cumming wrote:
> > We really need a forum!  Is there a reason (technical/cost/time) that
this hasn't happened?  What can we lua users do to help?
>
> We have the Wiki on http://lua-users.org/wiki/
>
> I guess we should gather more info there.
>
> D.
>
>


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Re: We need a forum!

Maxime Petazzoni
In reply to this post by Michael Cumming-2
We really need a forum!  Is there a reason (technical/cost/time) that this hasn't happened?  What can we lua users do to help?

I don't think a forum is a good idea. A forum is slow, ugly and messy.
Mails are simple, readable by everyone (have you tried to read a phpBB forum with a text browser?) and quicker.

Personnaly, I prefer a simple WiKi with the main examples, and a powerful and helpful mailing-list.

Regards,
- Sam
--
Maxime Petazzoni -  [hidden email]  - http://www.bulix.org
Gobelins [http://gobelins.nekeme.net] - Zwe [http://www.bulix.org/zwe]
GPG fingerprint:   D694 DAB9 8F4E 68A8 4C17   F011 ECAB 0E7B 83E6 AE0D
IMs:  [Jabber] [hidden email] - [ICQ] 100551837 - [AIM] maximepetazzoni

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Re: We need a forum!

John Belmonte
In reply to this post by Jason Murdick-2
Jason Murdick wrote:
A wiki is really not what Michael was suggesting, if I may be so bold as to
interpret his initial post.

He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB if I am not
mistaken.

I would have to agree with him. I'm not a big fan of mailing lists,
preferring discussion boards instead.

I'm not strongly against deploying such an application. I can say that I've considered this carefully before, and concluded that we cover most of what we need with the existing resources, and going down that path doesn't seem very cost effective.

A few points to consider:

* the lua-l archive search at lua-users.org is a very powerful full-text search (not a keyword search)

* there is no substitute for people digesting what they learn or discuss on the list regarding some subject, and then carefully writing coherent pages on the wiki, which may then be refactored

* most of the current community resources are under free hosting at sourceforge. phpBB or the like will require some other hosting solution. Whoever commits to that must have a sustainable, long term plan.

* there are some well-respected members of the Lua community who will not participate if they have to "register". (Or maybe Edgar has changed his view :-).


I believe we already have a forum (lua-l + wiki), and it has proved quite effective.

-John

--
http://giftfile.org/  ::  giftfile project

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RE: We need a forum!

Jonathan Jacobs
In reply to this post by Jason Murdick-2
Jason Murdick wrote:
> A wiki is really not what Michael was suggesting, if I may be 
> so bold as to
> interpret his initial post.
> 
> He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
> accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB 
> if I am not
> mistaken.
> 
> I would have to agree with him. I'm not a big fan of mailing lists,
> preferring discussion boards instead.

I find mailing lists convenient in that they are essentially passive. I
don't have to routinely check the forum, hitting F5 every 5 minutes for new
posts. It's all "automatic" with a mailing list. Besides, your mail client
is a lot more featureful than a BB could be (I'm not an avid BB user, so I
am open to correction) for instance sorting and filtering.

As for Michael's comment about all this knowledge being "lost", the mailing
lists are mirrored on the web.

Perhaps the answer is to make the web archives more functional? That's my
two cents.

Regards
--
Jonathan Jacobs
Developer



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Re: We need a forum!

Thatcher Ulrich
In reply to this post by John Belmonte
On Jul 01, 2004 at 01:08 -0400, John Belmonte wrote:
> 
>     * most of the current community resources are under free hosting at 
> sourceforge.  phpBB or the like will require some other hosting 
> solution.  Whoever commits to that must have a sustainable, long term plan.

I'm not a fan of web forums myself.  I certainly would be opposed to
replacing the mailing list as the official place to discuss Lua.  But,
I have used some SourceForge forums on occasion, and I think their
system is pretty good.  For example, if you're a registered SF user,
you can easily subscribe to get emails whenever a new posting comes in
to the forum.

-- 
Thatcher Ulrich
http://tulrich.com

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RE: We need a forum!

Vat Raghavan
In reply to this post by Jonathan Jacobs
Hello all,

long time lurker here :) 
I must say i agree with Jonathan.  
A forum would be redundant. We have this mailing list, a wiki for
'long term' knowledge and if you need help immediately there is the
irc channel  (irc://irc.freenode.net/#lua) (where i often idle :P).

Again i think Jonathan has the right of it, maybe if the web archive
had a better search system, and maybe a mode to 'nest' messages (beyond
the 'thread view' it has now, i.e. something similar to webboards like
slashdot,  or kuro5hin) that may allay some of the original poster's concerns.


--vat


--- [hidden email] wrote:
> Jason Murdick wrote:
> > A wiki is really not what Michael was suggesting, if I may be 
> > so bold as to
> > interpret his initial post.
> > 
> > He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
> > accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB 
> > if I am not
> > mistaken.
> > 
> > I would have to agree with him. I'm not a big fan of mailing lists,
> > preferring discussion boards instead.
> 
> I find mailing lists convenient in that they are essentially passive. I
> don't have to routinely check the forum, hitting F5 every 5 minutes for new
> posts. It's all "automatic" with a mailing list. Besides, your mail client
> is a lot more featureful than a BB could be (I'm not an avid BB user, so I
> am open to correction) for instance sorting and filtering.
> 
> As for Michael's comment about all this knowledge being "lost", the mailing
> lists are mirrored on the web.
> 
> Perhaps the answer is to make the web archives more functional? That's my
> two cents.
> 
> Regards
> --
> Jonathan Jacobs
> Developer
> 
> 
> 



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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Re: We need a forum!

Asko Kauppi-3

LuaForge (http://luaforge.net) announced some days ago contains project-wise forums.

Perhaps some of this need can be filled by directing lua-thisandthat specific discussions to those forums, or maillists as it also offers. This would leave lua-list to general discussion + announcements.

-ak


1.7.2004 kello 21:35, Vat Raghavan kirjoitti:

 Hello all,

long time lurker here :)
I must say i agree with Jonathan.
A forum would be redundant. We have this mailing list, a wiki for
'long term' knowledge and if you need help immediately there is the
irc channel  (irc://irc.freenode.net/#lua) (where i often idle :P).

Again i think Jonathan has the right of it, maybe if the web archive
had a better search system, and maybe a mode to 'nest' messages (beyond
the 'thread view' it has now, i.e. something similar to webboards like
slashdot, or kuro5hin) that may allay some of the original poster's concerns.


--vat



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RE: We need a forum!

Brian Weed-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Jacobs
>> As for Michael's comment about all this knowledge being "lost", the
mailing
>> lists are mirrored on the web.

A forum, however would solve the major spam farm that this mirroring has
created, since all our email addresses are right there for the picking.

Brian.


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[[hidden email] Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:34 PM
To: 'Lua list'
Subject: RE: We need a forum!


Jason Murdick wrote:
> A wiki is really not what Michael was suggesting, if I may be 
> so bold as to
> interpret his initial post.
> 
> He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
> accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB 
> if I am not
> mistaken.
> 
> I would have to agree with him. I'm not a big fan of mailing lists,
> preferring discussion boards instead.

I find mailing lists convenient in that they are essentially passive. I
don't have to routinely check the forum, hitting F5 every 5 minutes for new
posts. It's all "automatic" with a mailing list. Besides, your mail client
is a lot more featureful than a BB could be (I'm not an avid BB user, so I
am open to correction) for instance sorting and filtering.

As for Michael's comment about all this knowledge being "lost", the mailing
lists are mirrored on the web.

Perhaps the answer is to make the web archives more functional? That's my
two cents.

Regards
--
Jonathan Jacobs
Developer






Protected by Polesoft Lockspam
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

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RE: We need a forum!

Diego Nehab-3
Hi,

> >> As for Michael's comment about all this knowledge being "lost", the
> mailing
> >> lists are mirrored on the web.
>
> A forum, however would solve the major spam farm that this mirroring has
> created, since all our email addresses are right there for the picking.

Why not just remove the e-mail addresses from the archives?
We could make it harder for people to find out the addresses, like
requiring some kind of procedure a haverster won't be able to do.

[]s,
Diego.

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Re: We need a forum!

Martin Spernau
In reply to this post by Vat Raghavan
Vat Raghavan wrote:
Again i think Jonathan has the right of it, maybe if the web archive
had a better search system,

I'm not sure... but I think the search system for the lua-l (http://lua-users.org/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi) is rather powerfull. Maybe it's search syntax is slightly 'uncommon' for us all using Google dayly...

-Martin


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Re: We need a forum!

Jamie Webb-3
In reply to this post by Brian Weed-2
On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 03:57:45PM -0400, Brian Weed wrote:
> >> As for Michael's comment about all this knowledge being "lost", the
> mailing
> >> lists are mirrored on the web.
> 
> A forum, however would solve the major spam farm that this mirroring has
> created, since all our email addresses are right there for the picking.

I'd agree that I'm not entirely sure about the long-term effectiveness
of the obfuscation system used by the archive, and I'd rather just not
have the addresses displayed. But, I do get close to zero spam to this
account, so I don't think any spammer has picked up on it so far.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how a forum could be considered in any way
better than a mailing list. If you really don't like the format of the
official archive, it ought to be a fairly trivial task to write one
that looks like a forum, and to gate posts to the forum back onto the
mailing list.

Personally, I don't like to use the list archives either, so I just
never delete any mail. I can search the last 4000 odd posts using the
facilities provided by my mail client.

-- Jamie Webb

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Re: We need a forum!

Danilo Tuler-2
Hi,

Just to remember, there is a gmane gateway available at
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.lua.general

I'm sending this message using its web interface.
Does this work fine?

Danilo



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Re: We need a forum!

Edgar Toernig
In reply to this post by John Belmonte
John Belmonte wrote:
>
> Jason Murdick wrote:
> >
> > He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
> > accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB if I am not
> > mistaken.
>[...]
> will not participate if they have to "register".  (Or maybe Edgar has 
> changed his view :-).

Hm... I'm not sure what you have in mind but I can assure you that I
would never register at a web-forum :-)

I never understood why people are so obsessed with web-forums.  What
do they give that cannot be found in any half-decent mail-reader?
Just a single feature?  I've yet to find it.  On the con-side: they
are unwieldy, every one is different, you have to poll one after the
other to check for new messages, checking which messages are new is
tricky, they won't work with my browser, the text editors are toys,
threading/searching/filtering is inferior, archiving is impossible,
they are slow, you have to be online, servers track my reading habits,
banner ads, ...

IMO, if the people who ask for forums would take their time to learn
how to properly use their mail-reader and they would never ever ask
for a web-forum[1] again.  And I promise, it's worth the time :-)

> I believe we already have a forum (lua-l + wiki), and it has proved 
> quite effective.

Indeed.

Ciao, ET.

[1] or tagged subject lines ;-)

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Re: We need a forum!

Maxime Petazzoni
In reply to this post by Diego Nehab-3
Why not just remove the e-mail addresses from the archives?
We could make it harder for people to find out the addresses, like
requiring some kind of procedure a haverster won't be able to do.

Just change it from [hidden email] into a DOT b AT c DOT d, or something similar, and you won't have any problem.

- Sam
--
Maxime Petazzoni -  [hidden email]  - http://www.bulix.org
Gobelins [http://gobelins.nekeme.net] - Zwe [http://www.bulix.org/zwe]
GPG fingerprint:   D694 DAB9 8F4E 68A8 4C17   F011 ECAB 0E7B 83E6 AE0D
IMs:  [Jabber] [hidden email] - [ICQ] 100551837 - [AIM] maximepetazzoni

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RE: We need a forum!

Paul Smith-6
In reply to this post by Jonathan Jacobs
At 18:34 01/07/2004, [hidden email] wrote:
Jason Murdick wrote:
> A wiki is really not what Michael was suggesting, if I may be
> so bold as to
> interpret his initial post.
>
> He is suggesting a real forum, with threads that are organized, user
> accounts, and a real search utility. Something such as phpBB
> if I am not
> mistaken.
>
> I would have to agree with him. I'm not a big fan of mailing lists,
> preferring discussion boards instead.

I find mailing lists convenient in that they are essentially passive. I
don't have to routinely check the forum, hitting F5 every 5 minutes for new
posts. It's all "automatic" with a mailing list. Besides, your mail client
is a lot more featureful than a BB could be (I'm not an avid BB user, so I
am open to correction) for instance sorting and filtering.

I like mailing lists for some things, and discussion boards for others.

Personally, for Lua, I'd prefer a discussion board, as I'd prefer not to be bombarded with messages all day every day about it, since it's not a key part of my work. Most of the messages from the Lua mailing list I tend to just send to the trash. (and now we've found a decent spam filter service, most of the messages I get are from 3 or 4 mailing lists, the Lua, SQLite and ACCU ones being the most active, so being able to cut down on those would make my life easier ;-) ). I don't want to unsubscribe, in case I do want to get involved.

Other things which are more crucial *to me* I'd prefer to have on a mailing list (for the reasons you describe).

(I realise that for some people Lua is critial to them, so, if I was in that situation, I'd probably want the messages mailed to me)

A lot of discussion boards have a "subscription" model where you can subscribe to the particular forums you want, and then all messages to that forum get mailed out to you, so you get the benefits of both ways.

The only reasonable reason not to have a modern discussion board (IMHO) is the cost & effort of setting one up.

I'd happily set up a basic phpBB (or other free, PHP/MySQL board that works with Windows Apache) installation on our web server for the group, and I'm sure other people here would do the same, so that's probably less of an issue than it could be. (If it's something like phpBB, then it'd be relatively easy to move host if necessary as long as the old host was cooperative)


Paul				VPOP3 - Internet Email Server/Gateway
[hidden email]			http://www.pscs.co.uk/



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Re: We need a forum!

Philippe Lhoste
In reply to this post by Michael Cumming-2
Michael Cumming wrote:
I have been mostly a passive subscriber to this list for the last year.
The volume of useful information that comes through this list is amazing.
> And yet, it is lost to the email archives, making it difficult to search and retreive.
>  Threads are often broken and disconnected.
>  Valuable help and examples become lost like a needle in a hay stack.
We really need a forum! Is there a reason (technical/cost/time) that this hasn't happened?
>  What can we lua users do to help?

Going back to the original post...

Indeed, downloading the whole e-mail archives is a bit daunting, at least when you have a slow connection. And updating it is a bit annoying: either you just re-download the whole file, or... or what?

Here, a little script allowing to pack up a zip/gz file with a defined range of dates would be useful. Merging the resulting file with local archives should be easy then.

Now, I am not sure why searching the archives is so difficult, if you have a text editor able to load large files. Indeed, you can get a lot of false hits, and you cannot search multiple words inside a single message, but I am not sure a forum would do much better.

Note that I believe somebody (Diego?) wrote a Mime parser in Lua, perhaps one can write a Lua program to do such search inside mail archives.

Edgar pointed out many problems with forums, like needing to go the page and log in, being slow, needing to be on-line (and the server not being down...), etc. Plus it makes two places where to check infos: the mailing list and the forum, it seems a bit redundant.

Note on the Wiki: it is a great tool, but sometime it is hard to find a given information. Perhaps I am missing a site map, which doesn't make much sense in a Wiki since pages are not hierarchic (but can be hierarchized by somebody taking time to create such page).

And indeed, some precious information like Wim's list of dependencies should go immediately in the Wiki, but who will take time to do this?

No tool is perfect, and all depends on their use by people, anyway. But I don't feel a forum would be such a great idea/help. It could be in a new project which have not other tool yet, but not for Lua. Just my opinion, of course :-)

--
--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--
Philippe Lhoste (Paris -- France)
Professional programmer and amateur artist
http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--=#=--

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Re: We need a forum!

Jonathan Jacobs
In reply to this post by Paul Smith-6
Paul Smith wrote:
Personally, for Lua, I'd prefer a discussion board, as I'd prefer not to be bombarded with messages all day every day about it, since it's not a key part of my work. Most of the messages from the Lua mailing list I

Well, what I do is set up filtering rules in my mail client so that any mailing lists I'm subscribed to have their mail "delivered" to a unique (and self-contained) "folder" (Thunderbird syntax here). That way when mail comes in all I have to see is which folders have new mail, hardly what I'd consider being "bombarded", and yet extremely convenient.

A lot of discussion boards have a "subscription" model where you can subscribe to the particular forums you want, and then all messages to that forum get mailed out to you, so you get the benefits of both ways.

One of the "features" I like about mailing lists is that it's easy to participate in; getting, storing, archiving, searching, etc. messages is all up to my mail client, and replying (keeping threads etc. in tact) is essentially a keystroke. I know with mutt you even get the added bonus of using your text editor of choice and it's all essentially very little bandwidth usage; minus the bains of having broken international access (yes, that happens here with nauseating frequency).

Perhaps if you find mailing lists a pain, you should consider Edgar's advice of getting to know your mail client?

(on the side, I've noticed whenever I send something to the mailing list I get a bounce message from some or the other company [I've actually deleted the message now, so I can't give precise details] mentioning that such-and-such an address no longer exists for whatever reason. Could we by any chance remove that address?)

Regards
--
Jonathan Jacobs
Developer

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Re: We need a forum!

Paul Smith-6
At 10:46 02/07/2004, Jonathan Jacobs wrote:
Paul Smith wrote:
Personally, for Lua, I'd prefer a discussion board, as I'd prefer not to be bombarded with messages all day every day about it, since it's not a key part of my work. Most of the messages from the Lua mailing list I

Well, what I do is set up filtering rules in my mail client so that any mailing lists I'm subscribed to have their mail "delivered" to a unique (and self-contained) "folder" (Thunderbird syntax here). That way when mail comes in all I have to see is which folders have new mail, hardly what I'd consider being "bombarded", and yet extremely convenient.

A lot of discussion boards have a "subscription" model where you can subscribe to the particular forums you want, and then all messages to that forum get mailed out to you, so you get the benefits of both ways.

One of the "features" I like about mailing lists is that it's easy to participate in; getting, storing, archiving, searching, etc. messages is all up to my mail client, and replying (keeping threads etc. in tact) is essentially a keystroke. I know with mutt you even get the added bonus of using your text editor of choice and it's all essentially very little bandwidth usage; minus the bains of having broken international access (yes, that happens here with nauseating frequency).

Perhaps if you find mailing lists a pain, you should consider Edgar's advice of getting to know your mail client?

Accessibility is the point.

There seems to be a condescending attitude from the mailing list proponents "if you don't like mailing lists it's OBVIOUS you must be too thick to be using your email client properly, if you were as clever as me, you'd OBVIOUSLY find mailing lists better"

The point is that I know how to use my email client. I happen to use one which doesn't do threading (many don't - but people who use one which does like to claim that anyone who doesn't use one which does must deserve to be in a mental home) - it has many other nice features that I like.

I could set up filter rules, but then I'd NEVER see the messages - even replies to my own messages, unless I kept going into the 'Lua folder'. With a web forum, I could ask to be sent emails for replies to my posts, but not see replies to posts I'm not interested in. I have more control.

Searching messages on a web forum is just as easy as on my email client. Storing & archiving messages isn't an issue - they're stored once at the web forum host, not on hundreds/thousands of disks around the world wasting space ;) The web forum manages threading, usually better than mailing lists (see the 'hijacked thread' issue - which wouldn't be an issue on a web forum).

I like mailing lists in some places. Eg, I like a mailing list for messages to the Nominet UK steering committee, because those are usually important to me. Other less critical ones I'd prefer to move to a web forum (if you get a forum with RSS support, you can centralise your viewing of the forums as well)

As for people who say 'I'd never register with a web forum' - I'm sorry, that just sounds like sour grapes to me. It can't be a privacy thing - that's usually better on a web forum than a mailing list, so I don't understand any reason other than a 'I hate web forums so I won't use one, so there!' for refusing to use one, if there's only a web forum available.


Paul				VPOP3 - Internet Email Server/Gateway
[hidden email]			http://www.pscs.co.uk/



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