TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

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TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

aryajur
The most disliked are mentioned in the video but the ones to avoid are in the article.
    Unfortunately Lua is in the list of languages to avoid. 

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-5-worst-programming-languages-to-learn-in-2018/
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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Coda Highland
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Milind Gupta <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The most disliked are mentioned in the video but the ones to avoid are in
> the article.
>     Unfortunately Lua is in the list of languages to avoid.
>
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-5-worst-programming-languages-to-learn-in-2018/

I think the article gets pretty hyperbolic about things, and it
definitely overgeneralizes.

It's probably true that you shouldn't set out to learn Lua in 2018 for
the purposes of landing a new job. That's a reasonable enough claim.

But to say that you should "avoid [it] at all costs" is inflammatory
and ridiculous. Unlike Objective-C, which has been relegated to a
second-class citizen even by its leading proponent, Lua still fits its
role very well and there's no technical reason not to use it. And
unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
and certainly not going away -- as long as there are World of Warcraft
mods, Lua will remain. And unlike CoffeeScript, Lua hasn't been
superseded by advances in the problem it was trying to solve in the
first place.

The only problem Lua has is that it's stopped GROWING proportional to
the size of the overall market, not that it's stopped being RELEVANT.
There are more Lua developers than there are Lua jobs. But that's not
a reason to avoid Lua at all costs.

It's inflammatory language just to make the article more exciting to
get more views and therefore more ad revenue.

Save yourself a click, fair reader, and don't bother reading the article.

/s/ Adam

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Peter Aronoff
In reply to this post by aryajur
Milind Gupta <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The most disliked are mentioned in the video but the ones to avoid are in
> the article.
>     Unfortunately Lua is in the list of languages to avoid.

They manage to spell Erlang as "Erling" in the first bullet point of the
article. I can't be bothered to read beyond that.

P

--
We have not been faced with the need to satisfy someone else's
requirements, and for this freedom we are grateful.
    Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, The UNIX Time-Sharing System

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

KHMan
In reply to this post by Coda Highland
On 2/27/2018 8:32 AM, Coda Highland wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Milind Gupta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The most disliked are mentioned in the video but the ones to avoid are in
>> the article.
>>      Unfortunately Lua is in the list of languages to avoid.
>>
>> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-5-worst-programming-languages-to-learn-in-2018/
>
> I think the article gets pretty hyperbolic about things, and it
> definitely overgeneralizes.

I never read TechRepublic, they need to make money, so they don't
bite the hands that feed them.

It's not TechRepublic or their author, they are quite
inconsequential here. It's actually Codementor spouting the
propaganda. Codementor has an agenda, they want to be seen as the
experts to be listened to. They want to be the "mentoring experts"
or something.

Oh, I see a lot of Chinese names and a Taiwan office. Simples,
their name is _Codementor_. Their agenda is to capture the eyes of
those who worry about jobs, careers, paychecks. I guess it's part
of the Chinese upbringing in some of them -- getting good salaries
on a safe job or career, that's what their idea is founded upon.

Or put it this way: the good list and the bad list is what the
writers think they would put on their CVs in order to get their
dream jobs and salaries. It's like, dang, I spent all college
coding Lua on WoW and I can't put it on my CV in a respectable way.

Look at Codementor's writers and their focus and how they plan to
make money and build their community. They are a startup, full of
young people, and now these young people are trying to be the
experts on what you should learn. Their advice is not about
technical merits, it's about your CV and landing desirable jobs.

They have an agenda. They want you to be a good Codementor
customer, or at least get their name into your brain, and parrot
their talking points.

> It's probably true that you shouldn't set out to learn Lua in 2018 for
> the purposes of landing a new job. That's a reasonable enough claim.
>
> But to say that you should "avoid [it] at all costs" is inflammatory
> and ridiculous. Unlike Objective-C, which has been relegated to a
> second-class citizen even by its leading proponent, Lua still fits its
> role very well and there's no technical reason not to use it. And
> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
> and certainly not going away -- as long as there are World of Warcraft
> mods, Lua will remain. And unlike CoffeeScript, Lua hasn't been
> superseded by advances in the problem it was trying to solve in the
> first place.
>
> The only problem Lua has is that it's stopped GROWING proportional to
> the size of the overall market, not that it's stopped being RELEVANT.
> There are more Lua developers than there are Lua jobs. But that's not
> a reason to avoid Lua at all costs.
>
> It's inflammatory language just to make the article more exciting to
> get more views and therefore more ad revenue.
>
> Save yourself a click, fair reader, and don't bother reading the article.


--
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Selangor, Malaysia



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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

KHMan
In reply to this post by Coda Highland
On 2/27/2018 8:32 AM, Coda Highland wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Milind Gupta wrote:
>> The most disliked are mentioned in the video but the ones to avoid are in
>> the article.
>>      Unfortunately Lua is in the list of languages to avoid.
>>
>> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-5-worst-programming-languages-to-learn-in-2018/
>
> I think the article gets pretty hyperbolic about things, and it
> definitely overgeneralizes.

I apologize in advance for the following, because I just want to
hammer Codementor some more.

TechRepublic's article links to this Codementor piece:

https://app.upbeatpr.com/stories/codementor/worst-programming-languages-learn-2018/

A press contact. No author wants to put their name at the end.
Look at the methodology. Ugggh.

Then they link to "Best Programming Language to Learn in 2018".
Actually, the title of the piece is "What Programming Language
Should a Beginner Learn in 2017?" (dated Jan 2017, updated Sep 2017):

https://www.codementor.io/codementorteam/beginner-programming-language-job-salary-community-7s26wmbm6

What?! Too lazy to write a new piece for 2018? Very sloppy.

Look at the writer and her bio. Now, I'll do my best to avoid any
gender-specific talk of poor taste. Note that she doesn't mention
any operational knowledge of any programming language. No
experience to state? What does a "massive geek who games" actually
know about programming languages? She writes fiction in her spare
time, so probably not programs. Her piece is all about jobs,
salaries, job demand, job supply, employers. What does she
_actually_know_? Writing via Googling and Wikipedia?

In summary, this is a HR exec talking to potential recruits.
Codementor is probably more useful for HR groups to herd potential
human resources to their satisfaction.

> [snip snip snip]


--
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Selangor, Malaysia


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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Pierre Chapuis
In reply to this post by Coda Highland
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018, at 01:32, Coda Highland wrote:
> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
> and certainly not going away

I'm sorry but I can't let you say that either...

Regarding Dart, Google has announced Dart 2 a few days ago [1], and is making it one of its main languages for client-side application development. I wouldn't bury it just yet.

And Erlang... What? Erlang is very similar to Lua in that respect, it is well-established and not going away. There is still no alternative to BEAM for what it does. If anything I see the Erlang ecosystem growing because Elixir is going very strong... yet Codementor still put Elixir at rank 9 in their list of languages not to learn.

In other words, Lua is not the only unexpected language on that list. :)

[1] https://medium.com/dartlang/announcing-dart-2-80ba01f43b6

--
Pierre Chapuis

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Dirk Laurie-2
2018-02-27 10:09 GMT+02:00 Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018, at 01:32, Coda Highland wrote:
>> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
>> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
>> and certainly not going away
>
> I'm sorry but I can't let you say that either...
>
> Regarding Dart, Google has announced Dart 2 a few days ago [1], and is making it one of its main languages for client-side application development. I wouldn't bury it just yet.
>
> And Erlang... What? Erlang is very similar to Lua in that respect, it is well-established and not going away. There is still no alternative to BEAM for what it does. If anything I see the Erlang ecosystem growing because Elixir is going very strong... yet Codementor still put Elixir at rank 9 in their list of languages not to learn.
>
> In other words, Lua is not the only unexpected language on that list. :)

Ons should rather say TechRepublic is a blog to avoid in 2018 :-)

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Coda Highland
In reply to this post by Pierre Chapuis
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:09 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018, at 01:32, Coda Highland wrote:
>> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
>> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
>> and certainly not going away
>
> I'm sorry but I can't let you say that either...
>
> Regarding Dart, Google has announced Dart 2 a few days ago [1], and is making it one of its main languages for client-side application development. I wouldn't bury it just yet.
>
> And Erlang... What? Erlang is very similar to Lua in that respect, it is well-established and not going away. There is still no alternative to BEAM for what it does. If anything I see the Erlang ecosystem growing because Elixir is going very strong... yet Codementor still put Elixir at rank 9 in their list of languages not to learn.

I stand by what I said: I'm not saying that Dart and Erlang are bad or
dead, but they both hit a whole ton of hype a couple years ago and now
they've settled down into a stable state where the people who are
using it are using it but they're not the next big thing that everyone
seems to be excited about and "and we're using Dart!" or "and we're
using Erlang!" aren't tag lines that will attract excited new
developers like it used to.

That said, you're not wrong, either -- that means they're in the same
boat Lua is. They've matured, they've found their position, and
they're surviving based on their usefulness instead of on their hype.

/s/ Adam

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Guislain Duthieuw
Concerning Dart, Google has announced Flutter, a crossplatform mobile framework for native mobile app that uses... Dart.
oops TechRepublic ;-)

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Coda Highland <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:09 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018, at 01:32, Coda Highland wrote:
>> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
>> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
>> and certainly not going away
>
> I'm sorry but I can't let you say that either...
>
> Regarding Dart, Google has announced Dart 2 a few days ago [1], and is making it one of its main languages for client-side application development. I wouldn't bury it just yet.
>
> And Erlang... What? Erlang is very similar to Lua in that respect, it is well-established and not going away. There is still no alternative to BEAM for what it does. If anything I see the Erlang ecosystem growing because Elixir is going very strong... yet Codementor still put Elixir at rank 9 in their list of languages not to learn.

I stand by what I said: I'm not saying that Dart and Erlang are bad or
dead, but they both hit a whole ton of hype a couple years ago and now
they've settled down into a stable state where the people who are
using it are using it but they're not the next big thing that everyone
seems to be excited about and "and we're using Dart!" or "and we're
using Erlang!" aren't tag lines that will attract excited new
developers like it used to.

That said, you're not wrong, either -- that means they're in the same
boat Lua is. They've matured, they've found their position, and
they're surviving based on their usefulness instead of on their hype.

/s/ Adam


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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Mauricio Tavares
TechRepublic does remind me of someone in linkedin who gets docs given
for free and then emails you, the unfortunate who fell for it once, a
"free document we are offering!  All you have to do is enter your
contact info! Easy!" message.

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:04 PM, Guislain Duthieuw
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Concerning Dart, Google has announced Flutter, a crossplatform mobile
> framework for native mobile app that uses... Dart.
> oops TechRepublic ;-)
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Coda Highland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:09 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018, at 01:32, Coda Highland wrote:
>> >> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
>> >> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
>> >> and certainly not going away
>> >
>> > I'm sorry but I can't let you say that either...
>> >
>> > Regarding Dart, Google has announced Dart 2 a few days ago [1], and is
>> > making it one of its main languages for client-side application development.
>> > I wouldn't bury it just yet.
>> >
>> > And Erlang... What? Erlang is very similar to Lua in that respect, it is
>> > well-established and not going away. There is still no alternative to BEAM
>> > for what it does. If anything I see the Erlang ecosystem growing because
>> > Elixir is going very strong... yet Codementor still put Elixir at rank 9 in
>> > their list of languages not to learn.
>>
>> I stand by what I said: I'm not saying that Dart and Erlang are bad or
>> dead, but they both hit a whole ton of hype a couple years ago and now
>> they've settled down into a stable state where the people who are
>> using it are using it but they're not the next big thing that everyone
>> seems to be excited about and "and we're using Dart!" or "and we're
>> using Erlang!" aren't tag lines that will attract excited new
>> developers like it used to.
>>
>> That said, you're not wrong, either -- that means they're in the same
>> boat Lua is. They've matured, they've found their position, and
>> they're surviving based on their usefulness instead of on their hype.
>>
>> /s/ Adam
>>
>

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Mason Bogue
The trouble is that the Lua ecosystem has become so fragmented after
5.1. The changes in 5.2/5.3 seem to have been very unpopular and split
people among three versions. There were always legacy programs written
in old Lua versions, but today people even start new projects in old
versions. Some collaboration between the LuaJIT team and the PUC Lua
team will probably be necessary if the issue is ever to be resolved.
Unfortunately, this seems more unlikely than ever.

Also, Google project announcements do not mean much. Many are "20%
projects" that die within two years. See e.g. unladen-swallow.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 2:31 AM, Mauricio Tavares <[hidden email]> wrote:

> TechRepublic does remind me of someone in linkedin who gets docs given
> for free and then emails you, the unfortunate who fell for it once, a
> "free document we are offering!  All you have to do is enter your
> contact info! Easy!" message.
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:04 PM, Guislain Duthieuw
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Concerning Dart, Google has announced Flutter, a crossplatform mobile
>> framework for native mobile app that uses... Dart.
>> oops TechRepublic ;-)
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Coda Highland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:09 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Tue, Feb 27, 2018, at 01:32, Coda Highland wrote:
>>> >> unlike Erlang and Dart, which were things with big hype and big
>>> >> promise that ended up not getting traction, Lua is well-established
>>> >> and certainly not going away
>>> >
>>> > I'm sorry but I can't let you say that either...
>>> >
>>> > Regarding Dart, Google has announced Dart 2 a few days ago [1], and is
>>> > making it one of its main languages for client-side application development.
>>> > I wouldn't bury it just yet.
>>> >
>>> > And Erlang... What? Erlang is very similar to Lua in that respect, it is
>>> > well-established and not going away. There is still no alternative to BEAM
>>> > for what it does. If anything I see the Erlang ecosystem growing because
>>> > Elixir is going very strong... yet Codementor still put Elixir at rank 9 in
>>> > their list of languages not to learn.
>>>
>>> I stand by what I said: I'm not saying that Dart and Erlang are bad or
>>> dead, but they both hit a whole ton of hype a couple years ago and now
>>> they've settled down into a stable state where the people who are
>>> using it are using it but they're not the next big thing that everyone
>>> seems to be excited about and "and we're using Dart!" or "and we're
>>> using Erlang!" aren't tag lines that will attract excited new
>>> developers like it used to.
>>>
>>> That said, you're not wrong, either -- that means they're in the same
>>> boat Lua is. They've matured, they've found their position, and
>>> they're surviving based on their usefulness instead of on their hype.
>>>
>>> /s/ Adam
>>>
>>
>

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Pierre Chapuis
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018, at 04:34, Mason Bogue wrote:

> The trouble is that the Lua ecosystem has become so fragmented after
> 5.1. The changes in 5.2/5.3 seem to have been very unpopular and split
> people among three versions.

For the most part they were not unpopular with users, they were
unpopular with the LuaJIT implementer. At the time of 5.2 I suppose
the extent to which this would become a problem was not well
understood.

> There were always legacy programs written
> in old Lua versions, but today people even start new projects in old
> versions.

Not only that, people write code that assumes it runs on LuaJIT and
uses the FFI anyway...

> Some collaboration between the LuaJIT team and the PUC Lua
> team will probably be necessary if the issue is ever to be resolved.
> Unfortunately, this seems more unlikely than ever.

I think it's more likely that it was when LuaJIT was maintained by
a single person. I don't keep my hopes up though.

Here is a scenario I think could happen though: LuaJIT dies for
lack of proper maintenance and one of its forks (e.g. RaptorJIT)
rises from its ashes, with a maintainer who cares about this issue.

However, what I see as the most likely outcome is that the Lua
community will accept that LuaJIT is a different language, and
maybe that the use of another language (C, Terra, Titan...) is the
right solution to performance issues.

> Also, Google project announcements do not mean much. Many are "20%
> projects" that die within two years. See e.g. unladen-swallow.

Flutter is hardly this kind of project. It is Google's answer to Facebook's
React Native, and marketed as a recommended way to build Android
applications. I think Google is dedicating significant resources to it.

--
Pierre Chapuis

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Javier Guerra Giraldez
On 7 March 2018 at 15:23, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Not only that, people write code that assumes it runs on LuaJIT and
> uses the FFI anyway...

hey, the FFI is the nicest thing of LuaJIT!  in fact, it happens to me
a lot that i start a project in a somewhat modern Lua, and then
appears something that would some C... at that point I have to
consider: is this a "serious thing, where i do care about the users?"
then I use the Lua C API.  if it's a quick and dirty thing, then i
switch to LuaJIT and use the FFI.  (no, i don't consider luaffi)


> Here is a scenario I think could happen though: LuaJIT dies for
> lack of proper maintenance and one of its forks (e.g. RaptorJIT)
> rises from its ashes, with a maintainer who cares about this issue.

I have some hopes for LuaVermelha.  the OMR components are _much_
heavier than LuaJIT, but in theory could bring pretty nice performance
without forking the language.


> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018, at 04:34, Mason Bogue wrote:
>> Also, Google project announcements do not mean much. Many are "20%
>> projects" that die within two years. See e.g. unladen-swallow.
>
> Flutter is hardly this kind of project. It is Google's answer to Facebook's
> React Native, and marketed as a recommended way to build Android
> applications. I think Google is dedicating significant resources to it.

I for one, would never consider "react native" a usable solution (JS
is (sometimes) nice enough. React is not. npm means "close the tab").
Dart, OOTH, is actually a very nice language, especially now that it's
fully static and AOT compiled.  Unfortunately, most of the Lua
solutions for mobile seem too focused on games, which is not my
personal interest.




--
Javier

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Roberto Ierusalimschy
> On 7 March 2018 at 15:23, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Not only that, people write code that assumes it runs on LuaJIT and
> > uses the FFI anyway...
>
> hey, the FFI is the nicest thing of LuaJIT!  in fact, it happens to me
> a lot that i start a project in a somewhat modern Lua, and then
> appears something that would some C... at that point I have to
> consider: is this a "serious thing, where i do care about the users?"
> then I use the Lua C API.  if it's a quick and dirty thing, then i
> switch to LuaJIT and use the FFI.  (no, i don't consider luaffi)

luaffi is not a serious option, and cannot be; the whole philosophy of
FFI demands a compiler. FFI is what made LuaJIT definitively a fork of
Lua.

-- Roberto

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Soni "They/Them" L.


On 2018-03-07 06:35 PM, Roberto Ierusalimschy wrote:

>> On 7 March 2018 at 15:23, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Not only that, people write code that assumes it runs on LuaJIT and
>>> uses the FFI anyway...
>> hey, the FFI is the nicest thing of LuaJIT!  in fact, it happens to me
>> a lot that i start a project in a somewhat modern Lua, and then
>> appears something that would some C... at that point I have to
>> consider: is this a "serious thing, where i do care about the users?"
>> then I use the Lua C API.  if it's a quick and dirty thing, then i
>> switch to LuaJIT and use the FFI.  (no, i don't consider luaffi)
> luaffi is not a serious option, and cannot be; the whole philosophy of
> FFI demands a compiler. FFI is what made LuaJIT definitively a fork of
> Lua.
>
> -- Roberto
>

Slightly off-topic but thank you <3 (for saying LuaJIT is a fork of Lua)

(Can we also say "LuaJIT is not Lua"?)

--
Disclaimer: these emails may be made public at any given time, with or without reason. If you don't agree with this, DO NOT REPLY.


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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by Roberto Ierusalimschy
On 7 March 2018 at 21:35, Roberto Ierusalimschy <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> hey, the FFI is the nicest thing of LuaJIT!  in fact, it happens to me
>> a lot that i start a project in a somewhat modern Lua, and then
>> appears something that would some C... at that point I have to
>> consider: is this a "serious thing, where i do care about the users?"
>> then I use the Lua C API.  if it's a quick and dirty thing, then i
>> switch to LuaJIT and use the FFI.  (no, i don't consider luaffi)
>
> luaffi is not a serious option, and cannot be; the whole philosophy of
> FFI demands a compiler. FFI is what made LuaJIT definitively a fork of
> Lua.
>

Did you mean that luaffi is not a serious option for inclusion in Lua
(because it is not ANSI C etc.)?

LuaJIT's ffi is a library and I am not sure why the inclusion of a
library should cause LuaJIT to be classed as a 'fork' - although
'fork' is problematic word in my view anyway.

luaffi is a valid attempt to provide the same library for Lua.

Regards
Dibyendu

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Soni "They/Them" L.


On 2018-03-08 05:14 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar wrote:

> On 7 March 2018 at 21:35, Roberto Ierusalimschy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> hey, the FFI is the nicest thing of LuaJIT!  in fact, it happens to me
>>> a lot that i start a project in a somewhat modern Lua, and then
>>> appears something that would some C... at that point I have to
>>> consider: is this a "serious thing, where i do care about the users?"
>>> then I use the Lua C API.  if it's a quick and dirty thing, then i
>>> switch to LuaJIT and use the FFI.  (no, i don't consider luaffi)
>> luaffi is not a serious option, and cannot be; the whole philosophy of
>> FFI demands a compiler. FFI is what made LuaJIT definitively a fork of
>> Lua.
>>
> Did you mean that luaffi is not a serious option for inclusion in Lua
> (because it is not ANSI C etc.)?
>
> LuaJIT's ffi is a library and I am not sure why the inclusion of a
> library should cause LuaJIT to be classed as a 'fork' - although
> 'fork' is problematic word in my view anyway.
>
> luaffi is a valid attempt to provide the same library for Lua.
>
> Regards
> Dibyendu
>

You can implement bitops in pure Lua.

I challenge you to implement FFI in pure Lua.

--
Disclaimer: these emails may be made public at any given time, with or without reason. If you don't agree with this, DO NOT REPLY.


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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Björn Kalkbrenner
In reply to this post by Roberto Ierusalimschy
Hm... This thread keeps me thinking, and also motivates to write a question (even if I am trying just to lurk reading on this ML):

Yes, maybe I am not as experienced as the most of you here (no, it's a fact, exactly).

But I love Lua (not luaffi, not some dialect, just Lua). Why? 

It gives me possibilities to do things which helps me in my daily work - it's portable, small and fantastic modular. It also gives me possibilities to do and use things which should maybe don't be used - like luaffi - doing rock solid stuff I can trust. And if some library doesn't tend to be portable, I can try to fix it (no, i don't want to fix or extend luajit).
If someone would try to criticize how things can be done - yes, you are right, absolutely. Some things shouldn't be done in correct software design. 
But - if it's stable, if it's working, if it helps to shift down the development time...?

Roberto, with all respect, can you explain why luaffi isn't a "serious option" but luajit with FFI is? 

Sometimes, runtime speed isn't everything. We have used luaffi on Windows, embedded with PUC Lua as a framework in our own really-custom-dll.  It will _never_ win a speed and benchmark contest, but we have never implemented a software project with a specific demand as fast as with this project - with a satisfied customer. Also, "in-system-bugfixing" was never that easy.

What means serious here?
Why is luajit with luaffi so much better (which still is anchored to 5.1)?

-- 
Björn Kalkbrenner

Von: Roberto Ierusalimschy [hidden email]
Antworten: Lua mailing list [hidden email]
Datum: 7. März 2018 at 22:35:15
An: Lua mailing list [hidden email]
Betreff:  Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

On 7 March 2018 at 15:23, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not only that, people write code that assumes it runs on LuaJIT and
uses the FFI anyway...

hey, the FFI is the nicest thing of LuaJIT! in fact, it happens to me
a lot that i start a project in a somewhat modern Lua, and then
appears something that would some C... at that point I have to
consider: is this a "serious thing, where i do care about the users?"
then I use the Lua C API. if it's a quick and dirty thing, then i
switch to LuaJIT and use the FFI. (no, i don't consider luaffi)

luaffi is not a serious option, and cannot be; the whole philosophy of
FFI demands a compiler. FFI is what made LuaJIT definitively a fork of
Lua.

-- Roberto

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Pierre Chapuis
In reply to this post by Soni "They/Them" L.
On Thu, Mar 8, 2018, at 22:13, Soni They/Them L. wrote:

> You can implement bitops in pure Lua.
>
> I challenge you to implement FFI in pure Lua.

It is a library to interact with the outside world.
You can say the same of LuaPosix, LuaSocket, LuaFilesystem...

--
Pierre Chapuis

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Re: TechRepublic article about languages to avoid in 2018

Soni "They/Them" L.


On 2018-03-09 06:23 AM, Pierre Chapuis wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018, at 22:13, Soni They/Them L. wrote:
>
>> You can implement bitops in pure Lua.
>>
>> I challenge you to implement FFI in pure Lua.
> It is a library to interact with the outside world.
> You can say the same of LuaPosix, LuaSocket, LuaFilesystem...
>

Hmm...

I mean those were explicitly designed as independent Lua modules, I guess.

The FFI was designed to integrate with the language.

--
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