Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

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Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Dirk Laurie-2
A proposal has the following properties:

1. The proposer wants it incorporated in a future Lua and is
not interested in ways to achieve the same effect by exploiting
current features.
2. The proposer continues arguing, rebutting all criticism, even
when almost nobody seems to like the proposal.

A suggestion has the following properties:

1. Well thought out, so that everything that needs to be said
is said and everything irrelevant is omitted.
2. The poster offers it as something to be discussed and does
not enter the discussion again unless requested to.

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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Tim Perkins
I've been thinking the same thing. We're constantly reading pointless proposals on this list. It's getting really old. Kind of hard to enforce though...

(How many proposals actually become features? I'm betting on zero.)

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 3:20 AM Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
A proposal has the following properties:

1. The proposer wants it incorporated in a future Lua and is
not interested in ways to achieve the same effect by exploiting
current features.
2. The proposer continues arguing, rebutting all criticism, even
when almost nobody seems to like the proposal.

A suggestion has the following properties:

1. Well thought out, so that everything that needs to be said
is said and everything irrelevant is omitted.
2. The poster offers it as something to be discussed and does
not enter the discussion again unless requested to.

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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Javier Guerra Giraldez
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Tim Perkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (How many proposals actually become features? I'm betting on zero.)

if taken literally, i think it's zero (at most); but some discussions
did spawn features... usually not what the proposer had in mind.

for example, there were lots and lots of "i need 'continue'!!"
threads, and we got.... goto


--
Javier

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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Ignacio Burgueño-2

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Javier Guerra Giraldez <[hidden email]> wrote:

for example, there were lots and lots of "i need 'continue'!!"
threads, and we got.... goto

Careful what you wish for :) 

Also, metatables evolved out of a (proposal / suggestion) (and after a lengthy discussion too), IIRC. 



Regards,
Ignacio
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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by Dirk Laurie-2


On Monday, 28 September 2015, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
A proposal has the following properties:

1. The proposer wants it incorporated in a future Lua and is
not interested in ways to achieve the same effect by exploiting
current features.
2. The proposer continues arguing, rebutting all criticism, even
when almost nobody seems to like the proposal.

Does it matter? It seems to me that these posts tend to trigger lively discussions. 

 
A suggestion has the following properties:

1. Well thought out, so that everything that needs to be said
is said and everything irrelevant is omitted.
2. The poster offers it as something to be discussed and does
not enter the discussion again unless requested to.


I disagree with above. I am certainly not good at formulating fully formed ideas ... Often it is good to bounce ideas and iteratively improve. And who will decide whether an idea is good, fully formed, etc.?
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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Andrew Starks
In reply to this post by Dirk Laurie-2
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A proposal has the following properties:
>
> 1. The proposer wants it incorporated in a future Lua and is
> not interested in ways to achieve the same effect by exploiting
> current features.
> 2. The proposer continues arguing, rebutting all criticism, even
> when almost nobody seems to like the proposal.
>
> A suggestion has the following properties:
>
> 1. Well thought out, so that everything that needs to be said
> is said and everything irrelevant is omitted.
> 2. The poster offers it as something to be discussed and does
> not enter the discussion again unless requested to.
>

Perhaps instead of *proposal*, an *observation*? An observation is:

A short narrative that describes a reality. In particular, a reality
that could be improved upon by some form of change.

My observations are that...

This is unenforceable. Therefore, instead of correcting or scolding
(even long-time people), I/we might write an observation for someone
who has gone through the trouble of making a proposal, and they can
correct that observation and that will put the proposal on the right
track. (?) Or, suggest they write an observation. Or ignore the
proposal.

Ignoring a proposal is the fastest way to quiet it and all other proposals.

Observations are assertable.

Observations are a good conversational tool for getting the right
people (the people you're trying to persuade) to consider the issue as
a real issue.

[At this point, I keep typing for hours and generate a Great Wall of
Text, so I'll stop here. The "human thing" is something that I think a
great deal about, so this topic will always get me to post...]

-Andrew

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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Etiene Dalcol

I tend to agree with Andrew. Are we sure we want to specify it that much? For a lot of people these two words have little difference. Having this set of rules might generate animosity towards newcomers who use "the wrong word" or have "the wrong attitude" on their first contact ever. I like it better when discussions evolve freely. If an idea is good, hopefully something good will come out of it either way, otherwise you can still just ignore the message. It's not like someone is saying something offensive.

-Etiene

On Sep 28, 2015 6:02 PM, "Andrew Starks" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A proposal has the following properties:
>
> 1. The proposer wants it incorporated in a future Lua and is
> not interested in ways to achieve the same effect by exploiting
> current features.
> 2. The proposer continues arguing, rebutting all criticism, even
> when almost nobody seems to like the proposal.
>
> A suggestion has the following properties:
>
> 1. Well thought out, so that everything that needs to be said
> is said and everything irrelevant is omitted.
> 2. The poster offers it as something to be discussed and does
> not enter the discussion again unless requested to.
>

Perhaps instead of *proposal*, an *observation*? An observation is:

A short narrative that describes a reality. In particular, a reality
that could be improved upon by some form of change.

My observations are that...

This is unenforceable. Therefore, instead of correcting or scolding
(even long-time people), I/we might write an observation for someone
who has gone through the trouble of making a proposal, and they can
correct that observation and that will put the proposal on the right
track. (?) Or, suggest they write an observation. Or ignore the
proposal.

Ignoring a proposal is the fastest way to quiet it and all other proposals.

Observations are assertable.

Observations are a good conversational tool for getting the right
people (the people you're trying to persuade) to consider the issue as
a real issue.

[At this point, I keep typing for hours and generate a Great Wall of
Text, so I'll stop here. The "human thing" is something that I think a
great deal about, so this topic will always get me to post...]

-Andrew

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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Tim Hill
In reply to this post by Tim Perkins

> On Sep 28, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Tim Perkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've been thinking the same thing. We're constantly reading pointless proposals on this list. It's getting really old. Kind of hard to enforce though...
>
> (How many proposals actually become features? I'm betting on zero.)
>

Hmm well now, I can think of several occasions when suggestions/proposals (call them what you want) have indeed been incorporated, though these are usually more modest changes (API tweaks, doc changes etc). What I’ve noticed, however, is that sometimes a “proposal” is voted down (sometimes quite forcefully) but some time later appears (perhaps in mutated form) in a new Lua release.

Over a year ago I pointed out how hard it was to work backwards from a Lua state pointer to a “wrapper” structure when Lua called out to a C function (especially when the call came from a coroutine). I suggested a user-definable pointer in a lua_State, which was pretty widely shot down (several alternates were suggested, but I felt most were far less efficient than a pointer). And then out comes Lua 5.3 and has pretty much this exact feature (which I now use to great effect in a couple of projects).

The fact is, proposals/suggestions are indicative of some underlying perceived problem of the OP. Sometimes the OP might simply not have analyzed the problem correctly, sometimes the problem may be valid, but there already exists a clean solution unknown to the OP. Sometimes not. But in all cases the post indicates *something* useful imho, even if just indicating something that needs clarification in the documentation.

I personally welcome any and all posts here .. to paraphrase an aphorism “There is no such thing as a bad post, only a bad reply”. Others may of course disagree.

—Tim



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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Tim Perkins
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 1:08 PM Tim Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
I personally welcome any and all posts here .. to paraphrase an aphorism “There is no such thing as a bad post, only a bad reply”. Others may of course disagree.

I realize it makes me seem like a grumpy old guy, but I was thinking more of the, "Lets introduce some syntax sugar that breaks all existing code, and by the way I have no intention of writing a patch," sort of emails. It's just obviously not going to go anywhere.

Better to ask questions then write proposals. Or like Andrew said, make observations. Many proposals are XY problems in disguise.
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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Tim Hill

On Sep 29, 2015, at 8:06 AM, Tim Perkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 1:08 PM Tim Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
I personally welcome any and all posts here .. to paraphrase an aphorism “There is no such thing as a bad post, only a bad reply”. Others may of course disagree.

I realize it makes me seem like a grumpy old guy, but I was thinking more of the, "Lets introduce some syntax sugar that breaks all existing code, and by the way I have no intention of writing a patch," sort of emails. It's just obviously not going to go anywhere.

Better to ask questions then write proposals. Or like Andrew said, make observations. Many proposals are XY problems in disguise.

Agreed, but I’d rather they posted than get waved away with some sort of “You didn’t read the 25 rules of the Perfect Post .. bad boy!” type thing (not saying you would do that, but I’m sure you’ve seen such things in other forums/lists).

—Tim

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Re: Suggestion: no more proposals, only suggestions

Dirk Laurie-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Starks
2015-09-28 18:01 GMT+02:00 Andrew Starks <[hidden email]>:

> Ignoring a proposal is the fastest way to quiet it and all other proposals.

Hijacking a thread also seems to be quite a popular method.