Stackoverflow 2018 survey

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Re: Stackoverflow 2018 survey

steve donovan
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:28 PM, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You can use luarocks to update itself.

This is true. I'm remembering a time when the version provided was too
old to do this clever trick...

(If happy in the Debian Ghetto, then of course due to excellent
decisions by Enrico Tassi a good deal of the core Lua ecosystem is
already just an 'apt install' away.)

The point remains: every language has a language-specific package
manager, so why should Lua be singled out as a problem?

LuaRocks may not be part of the Lua distribution, but it has a strong
heritage coming originally from the Kepler project.

Why do we need the equivalent of a Papal Blessing before something is
considered Solid to Use?

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Re: Stackoverflow 2018 survey

Peter Aronoff
In reply to this post by Dirk Laurie-2
Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-03-15 13:43 GMT+02:00 steve donovan <[hidden email]>:
> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Erik Hougaard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> In 2018 I think the lack of a proper builtin "blessed" packaging system
> >> really hurts Lua. People just want to npm, nuget, pip or gem it.
> >
> > Well, if you already have a list like that, why not another package system? :)
> >
> > (Tho it is a little frustrating that the official Ubuntu/Debian
> > LuaRocks is a bit old)
>
> You can use luarocks to update itself.

I’m not sure how this works in the case of lua and luarocks, but Debian
used to (deliberately) break gem, so that it could *not* update itself. The
whole point of a blessed package manager being, from their point of view,
that they guaranteed things would work (and be secure) for a specific
version, but if the package manager then updates *itself* all bets are off.

In other words, and in my experience, if you are running Debian Stable, you
have chosen stability and security over up-to-date.

P

--
We have not been faced with the need to satisfy someone else's
requirements, and for this freedom we are grateful.
    Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, The UNIX Time-Sharing System

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Re: Stackoverflow 2018 survey

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by steve donovan
On 15 March 2018 at 11:43, steve donovan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My understanding is that PUC Lua team is like Linux kernel team -
> building the basis for userland to do the rest. Torvalds certainly has
> opinions about userland (e.g. his fights with Gnome) but he is not
> part of its decision making.
>

Am not sure this is a good comparison. Firstly because Linus operates
a completely different model of development which is based on
hierarchy of trusted maintainers. Secondly because there are big
companies doing the rest.

Lack of popularity for Lua is not necessarily a problem, as long as
Lua is strong in its niche and lacks a competitor. If a competitor
arrives in that niche, then the situation will be different. As we
have seen several times, no technology is sacrosanct (not sure that is
the word I am looking for) - you are only good until something better
comes along. Lua is fortunate that the only serious competitor -
LuaJIT - has given up on the contest.

Personally for general scripting I find Python is better as it is
possible to do virtually anything without too much effort. I hardly
know Python, but when I recently needed a cross platform test harness,
I decided to use Python and it was surprisingly easy to write one (see
https://github.com/dibyendumajumdar/dmr_c/blob/master/tests/runtests.py).

There are other issues such as user friendliness; as a language Python
is more user friendly.

Lua's strength / niche is its small size and power despite the size. I
think this needs to be maintained, but supplemented by a larger
standard library external to core Lua, so that general purpose users
have a better experience.

Regards
Dibyendu

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Re: Stackoverflow 2018 survey

Dibyendu Majumdar
On 15 March 2018 at 22:21, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15 March 2018 at 11:43, steve donovan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> My understanding is that PUC Lua team is like Linux kernel team -
>> building the basis for userland to do the rest. Torvalds certainly has
>> opinions about userland (e.g. his fights with Gnome) but he is not
>> part of its decision making.
>>
>
> Am not sure this is a good comparison. Firstly because Linus operates
> a completely different model of development which is based on
> hierarchy of trusted maintainers. Secondly because there are big
> companies doing the rest.
>

Actually It is also a wrong analogy ... as the Kernel itself is a very
large piece of software, and Linus relies on many contributors /
companies to keep it all working. The rest of the OS is not part of
the kernel at all. It is like saying Lua should start worrying about
what users of Lua are doing - as the rest of the OS 'userland' as you
call it - are users of the Kernel, not part of it.

Regards

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Re: Stackoverflow 2018 survey

Tobias Kieslich
In reply to this post by Keith Nicholas

Quoting Keith Nicholas <[hidden email]>:

> you don't realize why javascript is popular? Ok :)   But that's a tangent
> anyways.
>
> People have forever criticized js for it's lack of type safety and squishy
> syntax.
>
> The thing that's made js way better to deal with is the tooling.   But even
> then, there is a large rise in things like typescript and other transpiled
> languages.  People are super motivated to do js because of  the web and has
> driven large innovations around frameworks.
>
I think one of the shortcomings of the stackoverflow survey is that it focuses
predominantly on developers more so than on tangentially effected groups such
as devOps.  In my experience the simpler an ecosystem is, such as Lua, the
easier it is to deploy.  TypeScript is a nice language that deals with the
plethora of shortcomings of JS in a nice way, but the transpliler  
infrastructure,
requiring properly setup map files etc... all this makes the debugging  
of errors
in production environments a massive PITA.  What I'm saying, if you include
more than a developer opinion in the ranking the playing field would  
be scrambled
up pretty good.

  -tobbik


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Re: Stackoverflow 2018 survey

Justin Donaldson
I'd love to see Lua have something like Typescript.  I wrote the Haxe target for Lua, but they're fairly different syntactically (echoing the situation for Haxe and Javascript).  Still, it's nice using some of the Haxe ecosystem libraries for Lua now.

Having a compiler in the loop can catch simple errors, reduce generated filesize, and help gloss over differences in Lua versions.  However, I think special care must be taken to make it fast to compile.  I think typescript lacks a bit in this regard, especially for larger projects (which is where typescript *should* shine).  I'd strongly recommend OCaml for writing a typescript-like compiler for Lua.  It's what we used for Haxe, and as a result it's fantastically fast.

The wild thing about Lua is that it keeps finding itself in the middle of new and exciting tech... whether it's machine learning in Torch, or super fast web frameworks with nginx.  The folks coming to Lua from those domains have very different expectations and experiences than folks doing embedded or game scripting.  It's up to the Lua community to decide if it embraces those communities, or if it sticks to its original culture.

 

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:42 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

Quoting Keith Nicholas <[hidden email]>:

you don't realize why javascript is popular? Ok :)   But that's a tangent
anyways.

People have forever criticized js for it's lack of type safety and squishy
syntax.

The thing that's made js way better to deal with is the tooling.   But even
then, there is a large rise in things like typescript and other transpiled
languages.  People are super motivated to do js because of  the web and has
driven large innovations around frameworks.

I think one of the shortcomings of the stackoverflow survey is that it focuses
predominantly on developers more so than on tangentially effected groups such
as devOps.  In my experience the simpler an ecosystem is, such as Lua, the
easier it is to deploy.  TypeScript is a nice language that deals with the
plethora of shortcomings of JS in a nice way, but the transpliler infrastructure,
requiring properly setup map files etc... all this makes the debugging of errors
in production environments a massive PITA.  What I'm saying, if you include
more than a developer opinion in the ranking the playing field would be scrambled
up pretty good.

 -tobbik



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