Some thoughts about this mailing list

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Some thoughts about this mailing list

Geoff Smith

Hi


Sorry to complain folks, but one of the things I dislike about the Lua community is the reliance on this out dated mailing list format for discussing Lua.

I was reminded about it again today with 2 msgs I received, one was discussing how Yahoo users are now getting flagged as spam, and also a weird msg I got from

lua-l-bounces+[hidden email] , telling me I had lost messages due to several mail bounces (I am not a Yahoo user).

Why I am losing messages I have no idea.


In my opinion it would be so much better to move to a message board format. Here are a couple of Python examples

http://www.python-forum.org/http://python-forum.io/.


I would cite the following arguments for it.

1) I dont want to have to filter out Lua messages from my personal Emails, so I had to create a new mail account solely for this Lua List. Why should I need to do this ?
2) The message board format, is more aesthetic and pleasing on the eye to browse through.
3) Searching old messages is easier with a proper message board
4) Reading code snippets in this mailing  list is hard due to the screwed up html formatting. Custom code paste options in message boards solve this problem and make reading code so much better.
5) A minor point granted, but I would much prefer instantly clicking on a html link to read messages than the current irritation of having to log out of my personal email account and log in to my Lua mail account.

I cant think of any arguments against a message board format, apart from it would take some time and effort to set this up. I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this and why it hasnt already happened ? Am I in the minority with this point of view ?

Regards Geoff
 







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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
> In my opinion it would be so much better to move to a message board format.

See http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2006-09/msg00486.html .

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Rain Gloom
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
It would definitely be better imho.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Geoff Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi


Sorry to complain folks, but one of the things I dislike about the Lua community is the reliance on this out dated mailing list format for discussing Lua.

I was reminded about it again today with 2 msgs I received, one was discussing how Yahoo users are now getting flagged as spam, and also a weird msg I got from

[hidden email] , telling me I had lost messages due to several mail bounces (I am not a Yahoo user).

Why I am losing messages I have no idea.


In my opinion it would be so much better to move to a message board format. Here are a couple of Python examples

http://www.python-forum.org/http://python-forum.io/.


I would cite the following arguments for it.

1) I dont want to have to filter out Lua messages from my personal Emails, so I had to create a new mail account solely for this Lua List. Why should I need to do this ?
2) The message board format, is more aesthetic and pleasing on the eye to browse through.
3) Searching old messages is easier with a proper message board
4) Reading code snippets in this mailing  list is hard due to the screwed up html formatting. Custom code paste options in message boards solve this problem and make reading code so much better.
5) A minor point granted, but I would much prefer instantly clicking on a html link to read messages than the current irritation of having to log out of my personal email account and log in to my Lua mail account.

I cant think of any arguments against a message board format, apart from it would take some time and effort to set this up. I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this and why it hasnt already happened ? Am I in the minority with this point of view ?

Regards Geoff
 








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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Dirk Laurie-2
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
2016-11-08 15:20 GMT+02:00 Geoff Smith <[hidden email]>:

> I cant think of any arguments against a message board format,
> apart from it would take some time and effort to set this up.
> I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this
> and why it hasnt already happened ? Am I in the minority with this
> point of view ?

This is a question of personal preference. Have you counted the
number of times your message contains the pronoun "I"?

By all means set up a bulletin board. And a chat room. And
a blog with user interaction. Then everybody can use whatever
they like.

Just don't close down lua-l.

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Kevin Pitstick
Generally I find the mailing list format to be sufficient to keep up with current messages; however, it can feel inadequate when I want to search or browse older messages from before I was subscribed to the mailing list.

If there were an interest in adopting a forum, I would highly recommend keeping the mailing list and setting up a forum that mirrors it. Users can post to either the mailing list or the forum, and the message is mirrored on the other. A great example of this in action is the OpenSceneGraph forum (http://forum.openscenegraph.org/).

Cheers,
Kevin

On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
2016-11-08 15:20 GMT+02:00 Geoff Smith <[hidden email]>:

> I cant think of any arguments against a message board format,
> apart from it would take some time and effort to set this up.
> I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this
> and why it hasnt already happened ? Am I in the minority with this
> point of view ?

This is a question of personal preference. Have you counted the
number of times your message contains the pronoun "I"?

By all means set up a bulletin board. And a chat room. And
a blog with user interaction. Then everybody can use whatever
they like.

Just don't close down lua-l.


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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
In reply to this post by Dirk Laurie-2
> By all means set up a bulletin board. And a chat room. And
> a blog with user interaction. Then everybody can use whatever
> they like.
>
> Just don't close down lua-l.

Precisely.

This seems to be a good time to remind people about Lua at stackoverflow:
        http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua

Also in Portuguese:
        http://pt.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua

We can now move on. Thanks.

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Francisco Olarte
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 2:20 PM, Geoff Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I cant think of any arguments against a message board format, apart from it
> would take some time and effort to set this up. I would be interested to
> hear other peoples opinions about this and why it hasnt already happened ?

I, personally, have to be familiar with one MUA to read the mail,
using it for lua avoids having to remember how another forum software
works. AAMOF, I've stopped reading any programming tool related forum
/ message board unless I'm being paid to do it.

Mirroring the mailing list on a forum may be OK for me, but I would
stop reading it if it were migrated to just a forum / message board.
I've found all of them extremely annoying to use, very slow and
cluttered. I can dispatch reading lua-l in 10 minutes a day, my
experience says doing it on a forum takes at least 3 times longer for
me.

Also, regarding HTML formatting, I strongly dislike it, but not
because a forum as better markup options, but because I much prefer
text-only emails, I find all this coloring and boxing extremely
distracting and taking up too much screen real state ( but these may
be becuase I started using  mail in the 80x25 text only days ).

> Am I in the minority with this point of view ?

Posibly not.

Francisco Olarte.

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Adrian Perez de Castro
In reply to this post by Kevin Pitstick
Quoting Kevin Pitstick (2016-11-08 15:21:09)
> Generally I find the mailing list format to be sufficient to keep up with
> current messages; however, it can feel inadequate when I want to search or
> browse older messages from before I was subscribed to the mailing list.

“Browsing” is often a misused word, and people usually mean “search
for something”. Both functionalities (browsing and searching) are
provided at the mailing list archives webpage:

        http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/

If you want to search _and_ have your received copy of emails from the
mailing list sorted out nicely, just choose a mail client that allows
you to do that easily — personally I'm a fan of Notmuch's [1] full text
indexed search, plus each mailing list using a different tag, and I do
not even have it display many mailing list in the inbox depending on
their tags.

> If there were an interest in adopting a forum, I would highly recommend
> keeping the mailing list and setting up a forum that mirrors it. Users can
> post to either the mailing list or the forum, and the message is mirrored
> on the other. A great example of this in action is the OpenSceneGraph forum
> (http://forum.openscenegraph.org/).

That would be fine, I guess.

> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Dirk Laurie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2016-11-08 15:20 GMT+02:00 Geoff Smith <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I cant think of any arguments against a message board format,
> > > apart from it would take some time and effort to set this up.
> > > I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this
> > > and why it hasnt already happened ? Am I in the minority with this
> > > point of view ?
> >
> > This is a question of personal preference. Have you counted the
> > number of times your message contains the pronoun "I"?
Indeed. Mail clients are also a personal preference — but it is a fact
that some may be better than others at handling bigger amounts of mail
and allowing to sorting it out meaningfully :-)

> > By all means set up a bulletin board. And a chat room. And
> > a blog with user interaction. Then everybody can use whatever
> > they like.
> >
> > Just don't close down lua-l.

The mailing list has been a fine communication form for almost two
decades. “If it's not wrong, don't change it”, I'd say.

Cheers,

--
 ☛ Adrián

[1] https://notmuchmail.org/

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Daniel Silverstone
In reply to this post by Kevin Pitstick
On Tue, Nov 08, 2016 at 09:21:09 -0500, Kevin Pitstick wrote:
> Generally I find the mailing list format to be sufficient to keep up with
> current messages; however, it can feel inadequate when I want to search or
> browse older messages from before I was subscribed to the mailing list.

If there is call for it; we can look into publishing mboxes of the entire list
archive (as we have it) and I imagine lhf has archives from before Pepperfish
started hosting.

D.

--
Daniel Silverstone                         http://www.digital-scurf.org/
PGP mail accepted and encouraged.            Key Id: 3CCE BABE 206C 3B69

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Geoff Smith
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
point 6 In favour of a forum format I forgot to mention earlier

6) If you make a mistake in a forum posting or omit something, you can easily go back in later and correct it, rather than having to post a later confusing correction like this email.  In this mailing list a mistake remains forever !

Geoff


From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Geoff Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: 08 November 2016 13:20:23
To: Lua mailing list
Subject: Some thoughts about this mailing list
 

Hi


Sorry to complain folks, but one of the things I dislike about the Lua community is the reliance on this out dated mailing list format for discussing Lua.

I was reminded about it again today with 2 msgs I received, one was discussing how Yahoo users are now getting flagged as spam, and also a weird msg I got from

lua-l-bounces+[hidden email] , telling me I had lost messages due to several mail bounces (I am not a Yahoo user).

Why I am losing messages I have no idea.


In my opinion it would be so much better to move to a message board format. Here are a couple of Python examples

http://www.python-forum.org/http://python-forum.io/.


I would cite the following arguments for it.

1) I dont want to have to filter out Lua messages from my personal Emails, so I had to create a new mail account solely for this Lua List. Why should I need to do this ?
2) The message board format, is more aesthetic and pleasing on the eye to browse through.
3) Searching old messages is easier with a proper message board
4) Reading code snippets in this mailing  list is hard due to the screwed up html formatting. Custom code paste options in message boards solve this problem and make reading code so much better.
5) A minor point granted, but I would much prefer instantly clicking on a html link to read messages than the current irritation of having to log out of my personal email account and log in to my Lua mail account.

I cant think of any arguments against a message board format, apart from it would take some time and effort to set this up. I would be interested to hear other peoples opinions about this and why it hasnt already happened ? Am I in the minority with this point of view ?

Regards Geoff
 







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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

jungle Boogie
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
On 8 November 2016 at 05:20, Geoff Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I cant think of any arguments against a message board format, apart from it
> would take some time and effort to set this up. I would be interested to
> hear other peoples opinions about this and why it hasnt already happened ?
> Am I in the minority with this point of view ?


maintenance on such a forum would take away time from someone to manage it.

I can't help be repeat the same message from the link Luiz posted:

http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2006-09/msg00491.html
---
Please, no! No no no no no! Forums are awful --- they're slow, clunky,
dreadful from a usability issue, they force your users to go and get the
messages rather than delivering them to your users' inboxes...

If you absolutely must have a webforum-like interface, then try checking out
the GMANE gateway to the mailing list:

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.lua.general

But please, let's keep the mailing list!
---

Unfortunately gmane doesn't have the archives, but marc does:
http://marc.info/?l=lua-l&r=1&w=2


At first you may feel mailing lists are "out dated", but you'll soon
understand it's still very popular and effective.
Learn to bottom post, though. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style



--
-------
inum: 883510009027723
sip: [hidden email]

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Russell Haley
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:35 AM, jungle Boogie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 November 2016 at 05:20, Geoff Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I cant think of any arguments against a message board format, apart from it
>> would take some time and effort to set this up. I would be interested to
>> hear other peoples opinions about this and why it hasnt already happened ?
>> Am I in the minority with this point of view ?
>
>
> maintenance on such a forum would take away time from someone to manage it.
>
> I can't help be repeat the same message from the link Luiz posted:
>
> http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2006-09/msg00491.html
> ---
> Please, no! No no no no no! Forums are awful --- they're slow, clunky,
> dreadful from a usability issue, they force your users to go and get the
> messages rather than delivering them to your users' inboxes...
>
> If you absolutely must have a webforum-like interface, then try checking out
> the GMANE gateway to the mailing list:
>
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.lua.general

Page Not Found

A search for lua on the home page gives a "not found" page indicating
they are in the midst of a rebuild apparently. I know the original
maintaner talked about walking away, I don't know what ever became of
it:

http://home.gmane.org/


Russ

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Francisco Olarte
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Geoff Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> point 6 In favour of a forum format I forgot to mention earlier
>
> 6) If you make a mistake in a forum posting or omit something, you can
> easily go back in later and correct it, rather than having to post a later
> confusing correction like this email.  In this mailing list a mistake
> remains forever !

Well, unless the forum software is able to manage it well, which, for
me, is disallowing editions if someone different from the OP has READ
it, I find this ok. Other solutions may include marking ir as unread
or some other thing, but I cannot think of any.

Otherwise reading an edited post, which can include many responses to
the original text, may become a real PITA.

Francisco Olarte.

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Thijs Schreijer
In reply to this post by Geoff Smith
Geoff Smith wrote
In my opinion it would be so much better to move to a message board format. Here are a couple of Python examples

http://www.python-forum.org/, http://python-forum.io/.
<http://python-forum.io/>
Isn't that was Nabble [1] already does?

Thijs

http://lua.2524044.n2.nabble.com/
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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

oliver-2

The Mark and Nabble archives are very useful but one big advantage of a forum is you can answer even way after the thread has ended.  This happens a lot on stackoverflow and is super useful, because some questions never age but the solutions do. Plus the quality of an answer can be voted which helps save time for future readers. AND you would still get emails in your inbox just the way you do now so what are the negatives again?

Once you set it up there should be no more work necessary than was required to setup the original lua-l server. And there is no need to give up on lua-l, but a core group of lua experts would at least have to agree to sign up and answer in good faith. Surely there are a few of you open to trying if you have no work to do but (because I will do the setup) to subscribe and respond the same way you do on this list?


On Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 08:28 Thijs Schreijer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Geoff Smith wrote
> In my opinion it would be so much better to move to a message board
> format. Here are a couple of Python examples
>
> http://www.python-forum.org/, http://python-forum.io/.
> &lt;http://python-forum.io/&gt;

Isn't that was Nabble [1] already does?

Thijs

http://lua.2524044.n2.nabble.com/




--
View this message in context: http://lua.2524044.n2.nabble.com/Some-thoughts-about-this-mailing-list-tp7675653p7675685.html
Sent from the Lua-l mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
Oliver
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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Dirk Laurie-2
2016-11-11 21:58 GMT+02:00 oliver <[hidden email]>:

> The Mark and Nabble archives are very useful but one big advantage
> of a forum is you can answer even way after the thread has ended.

You can do that on a mailing list too. It has happened here often.

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Gregg Reynolds-2
In reply to this post by Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo

On Nov 8, 2016 8:38 AM, "Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > By all means set up a bulletin board. And a chat room. And
> > a blog with user interaction. Then everybody can use whatever
> > they like.
> >
> > Just don't close down lua-l.
>
> Precisely.
>
> This seems to be a good time to remind people about Lua at stackoverflow:
>         http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
>
> Also in Portuguese:
>         http://pt.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
>
> We can now move on. Thanks.
>

+1

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Ulrich Schmidt
In reply to this post by oliver-2
Am 11.11.2016 um 20:58 schrieb oliver:

> The Mark and Nabble archives are very useful but one big advantage of a forum
> is you can answer even way after the thread has ended.  This happens a lot on
> stackoverflow and is super useful, because some questions never age but the
> solutions do. Plus the quality of an answer can be voted which helps save time
> for future readers. AND you would still get emails in your inbox just the way
> you do now so what are the negatives again?
>
> Once you set it up there should be no more work necessary than was required to
> setup the original lua-l server. And there is no need to give up on lua-l, but
> a core group of lua experts would at least have to agree to sign up and answer
> in good faith. Surely there are a few of you open to trying if you have no
> work to do but (because I will do the setup) to subscribe and respond the same
> way you do on this list?
>
I like the mailing list and its atmosphere like it is. For me its not a
question about mailing list OR some kind of forum. Both choices coexist
peaceully.
I like the mailing list because the quality of answers for (my sometimes
silly) questions and i like the mailing list as a central place for
anouncements.

> Oliver

Ulrich.

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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

KHMan
In reply to this post by Gregg Reynolds-2
On 11/12/2016 5:30 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote:

> On Nov 8, 2016 8:38 AM, "Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo" wrote:
>  >
>  > > By all means set up a bulletin board. And a chat room. And
>  > > a blog with user interaction. Then everybody can use whatever
>  > > they like.
>  > >
>  > > Just don't close down lua-l.
>  >
>  > Precisely.
>  >
>  > This seems to be a good time to remind people about Lua at
> stackoverflow:
>  > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
>  >
>  > Also in Portuguese:
>  > http://pt.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lua
>  >
>  > We can now move on. Thanks.
>  >
>
> +1

+1
When each time folks here debate mailing lists vs forums, I recall
a pretty useful feature of the DJGPP mailing list: each month,
IIRC there is a longish automatic post with a lot of links to
resources etc, a pathfinder, if you will.

Such an auto-post will increase the visibility of major Lua
resources on the internet, such as the main sites, lists, forums,
IRC, stackoverflow, wiki, Paul's uses of Lua, upcoming
conferences, etc. Probably much of this is already on the Lua
site, but the whole point is that it is a 'information push'
scheme, or advertising. It may help semi-official forums or
channels increase traffic/users and become more viable as a useful
entity.

Say, make it something that can be digested in 1 minute, or
scanned in moments. It would be pretty useful for newbie lurkers,
and others can keep a fresh copy for easy reference...

--
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Selangor, Malaysia


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Re: Some thoughts about this mailing list

Dirk Laurie-2
2016-11-12 10:47 GMT+02:00 KHMan <[hidden email]>:

> When each time folks here debate mailing lists vs forums, I recall a pretty
> useful feature of the DJGPP mailing list: each month, IIRC there is a
> longish automatic post with a lot of links to resources etc, a pathfinder,
> if you will.
...
> Such an auto-post will increase the visibility of major Lua resources on the internet,
+1

It used to be standard practice on Usenet newsgroups to auto-post
an FAQ at the start of each month. This would be in the same vein.

Dirk

12