OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

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OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Rena
Lately I'm seeing a large proportion of messages from this list being
incorrectly routed to my spam folder because "we couldn't verify it
really came from yahoo.com" or "the sender is in violation of Google's
recommended sender guidelines". Anyone else seeing this? Is it
possibly an issue with the list itself?

--
Sent from my Game Boy.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Coda Highland
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Rena <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Lately I'm seeing a large proportion of messages from this list being
> incorrectly routed to my spam folder because "we couldn't verify it
> really came from yahoo.com" or "the sender is in violation of Google's
> recommended sender guidelines". Anyone else seeing this? Is it
> possibly an issue with the list itself?
>
> --
> Sent from my Game Boy.
>

I confirm your findings. I hadn't even noticed that it was happening.

/s/ Adam

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Jonathan Goble
In reply to this post by Rena

I'm getting that also.

The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.

The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily on messages from corporate domains.


On Sat, Mar 28, 2015, 12:50 AM Rena <[hidden email]> wrote:
Lately I'm seeing a large proportion of messages from this list being
incorrectly routed to my spam folder because "we couldn't verify it
really came from yahoo.com" or "the sender is in violation of Google's
recommended sender guidelines". Anyone else seeing this? Is it
possibly an issue with the list itself?

--
Sent from my Game Boy.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Coda Highland
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Goble <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm getting that also.
>
> The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action
> by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not
> sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.
>
> The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily
> on messages from corporate domains.

It is actually possible but it comes at the cost of making the list
messages come from the list itself instead of retaining the original
From: field. There's some ick involved in modifying the e-mail headers
(since you lose sender information with no good way to put it back)
but it would fix the delivery problem.

/s/ Adam

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Dirk Laurie-2
In reply to this post by Rena
2015-03-28 6:50 GMT+02:00 Rena <[hidden email]>:
> Lately I'm seeing a large proportion of messages from this list being
> incorrectly routed to my spam folder because "we couldn't verify it
> really came from yahoo.com" or "the sender is in violation of Google's
> recommended sender guidelines". Anyone else seeing this? Is it
> possibly an issue with the list itself?

I only had one such thread, which sent messages from Colin Hirsch
to spam for that 'violation'. However, several threads recently seemed
to start with a reply to messages I did not see, but they are not in my
spam folder anyway.

I have a mail filter set up that sends messages from lua-l directly to
a folder, bypassing the inbox. Maybe that reduces their spam score
or even automatically whitelists them.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Rob Kendrick-2
In reply to this post by Coda Highland
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:06:29PM -0700, Coda Highland wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Goble <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I'm getting that also.
> >
> > The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action
> > by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not
> > sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.
> >
> > The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily
> > on messages from corporate domains.
>
> It is actually possible but it comes at the cost of making the list
> messages come from the list itself instead of retaining the original
> From: field. There's some ick involved in modifying the e-mail headers
> (since you lose sender information with no good way to put it back)
> but it would fix the delivery problem.

It's a problem with all mailing lists that DKIM signatures get
corrupted, because the headers are altered.  DMARC and SPF don't help,
either.

However, the From: header is never changed.  (The MAIL FROM: at SMTP
time is set to an address belonging to the list so the mailing list
software can process bounces: otherwise the poster would get all the
bounces.)

GMail are a law unto themselves when it comes to interacting with other
mail systems.  My advice is generally to just avoid using them, but this
sadly isn't always possible.

Perhaps if everybody fishes them out of their spam folder GMail's insane
spam filter will figure it out.

B.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Coda Highland
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:06:29PM -0700, Coda Highland wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Goble <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I'm getting that also.
>> >
>> > The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action
>> > by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not
>> > sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.
>> >
>> > The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily
>> > on messages from corporate domains.
>>
>> It is actually possible but it comes at the cost of making the list
>> messages come from the list itself instead of retaining the original
>> From: field. There's some ick involved in modifying the e-mail headers
>> (since you lose sender information with no good way to put it back)
>> but it would fix the delivery problem.
>
> It's a problem with all mailing lists that DKIM signatures get
> corrupted, because the headers are altered.  DMARC and SPF don't help,
> either.
>
> However, the From: header is never changed.  (The MAIL FROM: at SMTP
> time is set to an address belonging to the list so the mailing list
> software can process bounces: otherwise the poster would get all the
> bounces.)
>
> GMail are a law unto themselves when it comes to interacting with other
> mail systems.  My advice is generally to just avoid using them, but this
> sadly isn't always possible.
>
> Perhaps if everybody fishes them out of their spam folder GMail's insane
> spam filter will figure it out.
>
> B.
>

No, I mean, I know that, I'm saying if we DID just craft an entirely
new set of headers for the outgoing messages, it would avoid the
spambox problem... at the cost of losing sender data.

/s/ Adam

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Jonne Ransijn
I dont know if there is a way to fix this, since labeling all mails sent by lua-l doesn't work either.

2015-03-28 16:06 GMT+01:00 Coda Highland <[hidden email]>:
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:06:29PM -0700, Coda Highland wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Goble <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I'm getting that also.
>> >
>> > The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action
>> > by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not
>> > sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.
>> >
>> > The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily
>> > on messages from corporate domains.
>>
>> It is actually possible but it comes at the cost of making the list
>> messages come from the list itself instead of retaining the original
>> From: field. There's some ick involved in modifying the e-mail headers
>> (since you lose sender information with no good way to put it back)
>> but it would fix the delivery problem.
>
> It's a problem with all mailing lists that DKIM signatures get
> corrupted, because the headers are altered.  DMARC and SPF don't help,
> either.
>
> However, the From: header is never changed.  (The MAIL FROM: at SMTP
> time is set to an address belonging to the list so the mailing list
> software can process bounces: otherwise the poster would get all the
> bounces.)
>
> GMail are a law unto themselves when it comes to interacting with other
> mail systems.  My advice is generally to just avoid using them, but this
> sadly isn't always possible.
>
> Perhaps if everybody fishes them out of their spam folder GMail's insane
> spam filter will figure it out.
>
> B.
>

No, I mean, I know that, I'm saying if we DID just craft an entirely
new set of headers for the outgoing messages, it would avoid the
spambox problem... at the cost of losing sender data.

/s/ Adam


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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Iurie
i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a folder.

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:34 PM, Jonne Ransijn <[hidden email]> wrote:
I dont know if there is a way to fix this, since labeling all mails sent by lua-l doesn't work either.

2015-03-28 16:06 GMT+01:00 Coda Highland <[hidden email]>:
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:06:29PM -0700, Coda Highland wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Goble <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I'm getting that also.
>> >
>> > The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action
>> > by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not
>> > sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.
>> >
>> > The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily
>> > on messages from corporate domains.
>>
>> It is actually possible but it comes at the cost of making the list
>> messages come from the list itself instead of retaining the original
>> From: field. There's some ick involved in modifying the e-mail headers
>> (since you lose sender information with no good way to put it back)
>> but it would fix the delivery problem.
>
> It's a problem with all mailing lists that DKIM signatures get
> corrupted, because the headers are altered.  DMARC and SPF don't help,
> either.
>
> However, the From: header is never changed.  (The MAIL FROM: at SMTP
> time is set to an address belonging to the list so the mailing list
> software can process bounces: otherwise the poster would get all the
> bounces.)
>
> GMail are a law unto themselves when it comes to interacting with other
> mail systems.  My advice is generally to just avoid using them, but this
> sadly isn't always possible.
>
> Perhaps if everybody fishes them out of their spam folder GMail's insane
> spam filter will figure it out.
>
> B.
>

No, I mean, I know that, I'm saying if we DID just craft an entirely
new set of headers for the outgoing messages, it would avoid the
spambox problem... at the cost of losing sender data.

/s/ Adam



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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Rob Kendrick-2
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:15:01AM +0100, Iurie wrote:
> i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in
> the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a folder.

If there is any way of getting out of Google /why/ it has decided
something is spam, I'm interested in hearing about it so I can see if I
can slap some sense into them.

B.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Natanael Copa


On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:15:01AM +0100, Iurie wrote:
> i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in
> the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a folder.

If there is any way of getting out of Google /why/ it has decided
something is spam, I'm interested in hearing about it so I can see if I
can slap some sense into them.
Natanael Copa
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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Matthew Wild
In reply to this post by Rob Kendrick-2
On 30 March 2015 at 09:18, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:15:01AM +0100, Iurie wrote:
>> i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in
>> the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a folder.
>
> If there is any way of getting out of Google /why/ it has decided
> something is spam, I'm interested in hearing about it so I can see if I
> can slap some sense into them.

It might be IPv6-related. The messages marked as spam link here:
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en-GB

Regards,
Matthew

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Rob Kendrick-2
In reply to this post by Natanael Copa
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 02:05:16PM +0200, Natanael Copa wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:15:01AM +0100, Iurie wrote:
> > > i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in
> > > the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a
> > folder.
> >
> > If there is any way of getting out of Google /why/ it has decided
> > something is spam, I'm interested in hearing about it so I can see if I
> > can slap some sense into them.
>
> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/188131?hl=en

None of that is helpful; it's specifically about bulk commericial email,
and the bit about being a "forwarder" is full of poor advice.  (For
example, change the subject line to include "SPAM" [even though they say
don't modify the headers], and don't change the envelope from/MAIL FROM:,
which would be catastrophic for a mailing list.)

B.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Rob Kendrick-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Wild
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 01:32:07PM +0100, Matthew Wild wrote:

> On 30 March 2015 at 09:18, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:15:01AM +0100, Iurie wrote:
> >> i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in
> >> the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a folder.
> >
> > If there is any way of getting out of Google /why/ it has decided
> > something is spam, I'm interested in hearing about it so I can see if I
> > can slap some sense into them.
>
> It might be IPv6-related. The messages marked as spam link here:
> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en-GB

I thought we disabled IPv6 for sending to GMail specifically because
they can't cope correctly with it: I'll double-check.

B.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Jorge Visca
In reply to this post by Iurie
Gmail filters have a "Never mark as Spam" checkbox, seems to be working.



On 29/03/15 20:15, Iurie wrote:
i am filtering all emails and they go to a folder and at the same time in the spam box, so i suggest everybody to filter all list email to a folder.

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:34 PM, Jonne Ransijn <[hidden email]> wrote:
I dont know if there is a way to fix this, since labeling all mails sent by lua-l doesn't work either.

2015-03-28 16:06 GMT+01:00 Coda Highland <[hidden email]>:
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:06:29PM -0700, Coda Highland wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Jonathan Goble <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > I'm getting that also.
>> >
>> > The messages from Yahoo going to spam is the result of a deliberate action
>> > by Yahoo itself, Google "Yahoo DMARC reject policy" for more info. I'm not
>> > sure if the list can do anything to prevent it.
>> >
>> > The "violation of recommended sender guidelines" seems to happen primarily
>> > on messages from corporate domains.
>>
>> It is actually possible but it comes at the cost of making the list
>> messages come from the list itself instead of retaining the original
>> From: field. There's some ick involved in modifying the e-mail headers
>> (since you lose sender information with no good way to put it back)
>> but it would fix the delivery problem.
>
> It's a problem with all mailing lists that DKIM signatures get
> corrupted, because the headers are altered.  DMARC and SPF don't help,
> either.
>
> However, the From: header is never changed.  (The MAIL FROM: at SMTP
> time is set to an address belonging to the list so the mailing list
> software can process bounces: otherwise the poster would get all the
> bounces.)
>
> GMail are a law unto themselves when it comes to interacting with other
> mail systems.  My advice is generally to just avoid using them, but this
> sadly isn't always possible.
>
> Perhaps if everybody fishes them out of their spam folder GMail's insane
> spam filter will figure it out.
>
> B.
>

No, I mean, I know that, I'm saying if we DID just craft an entirely
new set of headers for the outgoing messages, it would avoid the
spambox problem... at the cost of losing sender data.

/s/ Adam




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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Levente Kovacs
In reply to this post by Rena
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 00:50:03 -0400
Rena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lately I'm seeing a large proportion of messages from this list being
> incorrectly routed to my spam folder because "we couldn't verify it
> really came from yahoo.com" or "the sender is in violation of Google's
> recommended sender guidelines". Anyone else seeing this? Is it
> possibly an issue with the list itself?


One workaround is using a news reader, and browsing the list through gmane.

Levente




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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Egor Skriptunoff-2
In reply to this post by Jorge Visca
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Jorge <[hidden email]> wrote:
Gmail filters have a "Never mark as Spam" checkbox, seems to be working.


It is possible to completely disable GMail's spam filter, just create the following filter:
Has the words: "label:spam"
Action: "Never send it to Spam"

--Egor
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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Coda Highland
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Egor Skriptunoff
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Jorge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Gmail filters have a "Never mark as Spam" checkbox, seems to be working.
>>
>
> It is possible to completely disable GMail's spam filter, just create the
> following filter:
> Has the words: "label:spam"
> Action: "Never send it to Spam"
>
> --Egor

Talk about using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. ^^; I get more spam
than I do legit e-mails.

/s/ Adam

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
In reply to this post by Rena
Rena reported this issue on 28 Mar 2015:
        http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2015-03/msg00383.html

It is still happening to me; twice this month:

        Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:36:13 +0000 (UTC)
        Subject: Table.remove() issue with the last element

        Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:43:59 +0000 (UTC)
        Subject: Lua Object Oriented examples

You may want to check your spam folder for any lua-l messages.

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Re: OT: Gmail flagging lua-l messages as spam

Jonathan Goble
On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Luiz Henrique de Figueiredo
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Rena reported this issue on 28 Mar 2015:
>         http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2015-03/msg00383.html
>
> It is still happening to me; twice this month:
>
>         Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:36:13 +0000 (UTC)
>         Subject: Table.remove() issue with the last element
>
>         Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:43:59 +0000 (UTC)
>         Subject: Lua Object Oriented examples
>
> You may want to check your spam folder for any lua-l messages.

Both of those are from Yahoo addresses. As I posted the day it was
reported here [1], Yahoo has chosen to publish a DMARC reject policy,
which unfortunately broke almost all mailing lists. Put simply, until
a change is made, every single message from Yahoo addresses will go to
the spam folder for users who are using email service providers
(including Gmail, Hotmail, and Yahoo itself) that are DMARC-compliant.
Yahoo doesn't seem to care about the damage that this change has done
to mailing lists.

Some informational links about this:

Official Yahoo FAQ:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/SLN24016.html

Yahoo blog post about the change:
https://yahoomail.tumblr.com/post/82426900353/yahoo-dmarc-policy-change-what-should-senders

FAQ on DMARC wiki discussing options for mailing list providers to
adapt to the reject policy:
https://dmarc.org/wiki/FAQ#s_3

[1] http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2015-03/msg00386.html

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