Making Lua accessible to everyone

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Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić

Hi! I’m Sorn Maksumic. The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners. If you’re interested, please continue to read.


Beginners are most likely not going to join this mailing list. They’re just not. Especially those who are new to programming in general. As you already know, Lua is used a lot in game development and mods, which makes it the first programming language for many. Maybe it was one of your first programming languages too? It was mine, I got introduced to Lua through Open Tibia (a game).


To continue, at least 90% of the traffic LuaForum.com is getting is from beginners searching “Lua Forum”, because they need help. The forum has great SEO (mainly because of the domain name) and the forum always appears on the first page on Google. But, it’s no use in having great SEO if there is no one around to help the beginners, right?


Most of the traffic is coming from this question: How to install Lua on Windows?


Further, technical documentation really scares beginners. Forum posts are much more welcoming and it allows beginners to reply and ask questions when something is unclear. This is not possible in the reference manual. It would be great to see what beginners are struggling to grasp. Once a question has been answered, it doesn’t have to be answered again.


It can also be a place for experts to share ideas (such as Space/Time Duality by Gavin). This also helps beginners to see good coding practice and style. The space/time duality article is probably the best programming article I’ve ever read.


The things you post on LuaForum.com will never be deleted. Running a forum is really cheap, and I have no problem sponsoring it myself; everything is already prepaid until 2025.


To summarize, why join Lua Forum?

  • People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing list

  • The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for help

  • Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question

  • Experts can share good coding practice and style

  • Posts will never be deleted


I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.


Thank you for reading,

Sorn


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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Jesús Hernán Cano Martínez
Hi, Sorn.
I agree with you.
I am a beginner and also have feel what you describe.
I am also interested in help.

I have written (not professionally)  some little code (a form) that can be used in Lua v5.1 and v5.3, showing data from an SQLite database.

I agree with you, Sorn.

See you later.


De: Sorn Županić Maksumić
Enviado: jueves, 12 de noviembre de 2020 9:22 a. m.
Para: lua-l-lists.lua.org
Asunto: Making Lua accessible to everyone
 

Hi! I’m Sorn Maksumic. The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners. If you’re interested, please continue to read.


Beginners are most likely not going to join this mailing list. They’re just not. Especially those who are new to programming in general. As you already know, Lua is used a lot in game development and mods, which makes it the first programming language for many. Maybe it was one of your first programming languages too? It was mine, I got introduced to Lua through Open Tibia (a game).


To continue, at least 90% of the traffic LuaForum.com is getting is from beginners searching “Lua Forum”, because they need help. The forum has great SEO (mainly because of the domain name) and the forum always appears on the first page on Google. But, it’s no use in having great SEO if there is no one around to help the beginners, right?


Most of the traffic is coming from this question: How to install Lua on Windows?


Further, technical documentation really scares beginners. Forum posts are much more welcoming and it allows beginners to reply and ask questions when something is unclear. This is not possible in the reference manual. It would be great to see what beginners are struggling to grasp. Once a question has been answered, it doesn’t have to be answered again.


It can also be a place for experts to share ideas (such as Space/Time Duality by Gavin). This also helps beginners to see good coding practice and style. The space/time duality article is probably the best programming article I’ve ever read.


The things you post on LuaForum.com will never be deleted. Running a forum is really cheap, and I have no problem sponsoring it myself; everything is already prepaid until 2025.


To summarize, why join Lua Forum?

  • People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing list

  • The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for help

  • Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question

  • Experts can share good coding practice and style

  • Posts will never be deleted


I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.


Thank you for reading,

Sorn


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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Rob Kendrick-2
In reply to this post by Sorn Županić Maksumić
On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 03:22:38PM +0100, Sorn Županić Maksumić wrote:
> To continue, at least 90% of the traffic LuaForum.com is getting is from
> beginners searching “Lua Forum”, because they need help. The forum has
> great SEO (mainly because of the domain name) and the forum always appears
> on the first page on Google. But, it’s no use in having great SEO if there
> is no one around to help the beginners, right?

Perhaps your website could point them towards the web interface to
lua-l?  It doesn't let you post (problems with spam and poor-quality)
but it does let you read using a website.  Perhaps the lua.org website
could also add your forum to the Community page, too.
 
>    People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing
>    list

Do you know why, even if it has a web interface?  I mean, it's still
another UI and username/password to remember.

>    The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for
>    help

Well, searching for the name of your site finds your site, that's not
surprising :)  The main Lua website lists numerous discussion fora,
including this one, it's not hard to find.

>    Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question

No way to ask a question where?  On the docs?  The website has links to
many places you can ask a question, most of which do not require any
sign up at all.

>    Experts can share good coding practice and style

Same applies to everywhere the community section of the website
mentions.

>    Posts will never be deleted

I don't know about other systems, but I don't think a post has ever been
deleted from the lua-l archives.

> I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.

Sadly I won't be joining, I've found web fora almost universally
terrible places in terms of interface, convenience, uptime, reliability,
and content.  Needing a special sign-up just for it is also a put-off
for me: somewhere like StackOverflow or Reddit where people are likely
to already have signed up seems better to me, if a mailing list is not
an option.

B.
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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Chris Smith
In reply to this post by Sorn Županić Maksumić
Hi Sorn,


On 12 Nov 2020, at 14:22, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

To summarize, why join Lua Forum?
  • People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing list
  • The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for help
  • Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question
  • Experts can share good coding practice and style
  • Posts will never be deleted

I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.

Out of curiosity I tried joining your forum.  First of all, I note that it is a closed forum: new accounts require moderator approval.  I do not approve of that at all; I have no interest in participating in closed forums and am likely to cancel my account as a result.  Secondly, I joined last week and I have been waiting for five days now for my account to be approved, which is hardly an encouraging start.

If you are trying to create a welcoming place for beginners then I would suggest that you are falling well short of the mark.  Just my opinion, take it for what it’s worth.

Regards,
Chris

Chris Smith <[hidden email]>

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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
Hi Chris,
Sorry for the inconvenience. I usually don't have to approve accounts.

image.png

It got marked as spam for some reason. Again, sorry about that!
 


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 1:35 PM Chris Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Sorn,


On 12 Nov 2020, at 14:22, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

To summarize, why join Lua Forum?
  • People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing list
  • The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for help
  • Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question
  • Experts can share good coding practice and style
  • Posts will never be deleted

I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.

Out of curiosity I tried joining your forum.  First of all, I note that it is a closed forum: new accounts require moderator approval.  I do not approve of that at all; I have no interest in participating in closed forums and am likely to cancel my account as a result.  Secondly, I joined last week and I have been waiting for five days now for my account to be approved, which is hardly an encouraging start.

If you are trying to create a welcoming place for beginners then I would suggest that you are falling well short of the mark.  Just my opinion, take it for what it’s worth.

Regards,
Chris

Chris Smith <[hidden email]>

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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
In reply to this post by Rob Kendrick-2
Hi Rob! 

Thank you, I appreciate your honest feedback.

I hear what you're saying. And I think most of it is because of unfamiliarity with mailing lists and technical documentation. Most people don't even know there's an UI for mailing lists. And technical documentation is still scary to beginners. Many people also prefer the forum layout and structure (over, let's say Reddit's "tree/branching" structure?) StackOverflow on the other hand, is not a very welcoming place for beginners: beginners get downvoted a lot, their questions get locked, and they get attacked for not asking the questions correctly. Beginners, especially those completely new to programming wouldn't even know how to ask a correct question. I'm not saying SO is doing anything wrong, but beginners do not feel welcome there. Agree?

Well, not all my sites show up on the first page of Google when I search for related keywords. It's a great domain name.

You're probably right in that nothing has ever been deleted from the lua-l archives. The reason I mention it is because I want to assure you the same applies to LuaForum.com

That's ok. If you ever change your mind, you're welcome.

Sincerely,
Sorn






mandag 16. november 2020 skrev Rob Kendrick <[hidden email]>:
On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 03:22:38PM +0100, Sorn Županić Maksumić wrote:
> To continue, at least 90% of the traffic LuaForum.com is getting is from
> beginners searching “Lua Forum”, because they need help. The forum has
> great SEO (mainly because of the domain name) and the forum always appears
> on the first page on Google. But, it’s no use in having great SEO if there
> is no one around to help the beginners, right?

Perhaps your website could point them towards the web interface to
lua-l?  It doesn't let you post (problems with spam and poor-quality)
but it does let you read using a website.  Perhaps the lua.org website
could also add your forum to the Community page, too.
 
>    People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing
>    list

Do you know why, even if it has a web interface?  I mean, it's still
another UI and username/password to remember.

>    The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for
>    help

Well, searching for the name of your site finds your site, that's not
surprising :)  The main Lua website lists numerous discussion fora,
including this one, it's not hard to find.

>    Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question

No way to ask a question where?  On the docs?  The website has links to
many places you can ask a question, most of which do not require any
sign up at all.

>    Experts can share good coding practice and style

Same applies to everywhere the community section of the website
mentions.

>    Posts will never be deleted

I don't know about other systems, but I don't think a post has ever been
deleted from the lua-l archives.

> I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.

Sadly I won't be joining, I've found web fora almost universally
terrible places in terms of interface, convenience, uptime, reliability,
and content.  Needing a special sign-up just for it is also a put-off
for me: somewhere like StackOverflow or Reddit where people are likely
to already have signed up seems better to me, if a mailing list is not
an option.

B.
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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

James Darnley
In reply to this post by Sorn Županić Maksumić
On 12/11/2020, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to
> make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners.

Why?  Popularity ruins everything.
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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Russell Haley
In reply to this post by Sorn Županić Maksumić
Hi Sorn, 

TLDR: I support you. I think LHF and Roberto (lua.org) are wise to stay at arms length and have seen this entire scenario play (fizzle) out many times before. I've seen similar discussions 3 times in my short life on this list.

While I enjoy the Lua mailing list, a forum is a great idea IMHO. I think it will open up Lua to many people for searching answers and participating. Why do I think that? Because there are LOTS of mailling lists for Lua in specific areas. Robolx dev forums are a great example of forums at work for Lua. I also think this particular mailing list is very insular due to the nature of Lua. I say this because "desktop scripting language" is only one scenario and the Lua authors (and owners of the mailing list) keep Lua as small and generic as possible. There is a great deal that can be done (and has been done) in the past to make Lua a better desktop solution. Just don't look for support from Lua.org because they will (wisely) not become involved.

As per installing Lua on Windows: I have been working on a Lua Binary distribution called WinLua: http://winlua.net. It uses MSI installers to set up all the proper paths and whatnot. It comes in two flavors currently: Just Lua 5.3 (+ LuaFileSystem) or WinLua Toolchain with compilers and a build system. I am trying to get a new release complete which bundles the latest LLVM Compiler (11) with LuaRocks, Lua 5.4 and a Lua build system (xmake). There is currently an existing functional BETA of "WinLua Toolchain" that uses LLVM 10. I am also working on a small compiler that is designed just for use with LuaRocks for people that want great C modules but don't care about writing C; I currently have it down to 200 MB with a compiler, Luarocks (3.0.3) and Lua 5.3. 

See you on the forums!
Russ

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 6:23 AM Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi! I’m Sorn Maksumic. The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners. If you’re interested, please continue to read.


Beginners are most likely not going to join this mailing list. They’re just not. Especially those who are new to programming in general. As you already know, Lua is used a lot in game development and mods, which makes it the first programming language for many. Maybe it was one of your first programming languages too? It was mine, I got introduced to Lua through Open Tibia (a game).


To continue, at least 90% of the traffic LuaForum.com is getting is from beginners searching “Lua Forum”, because they need help. The forum has great SEO (mainly because of the domain name) and the forum always appears on the first page on Google. But, it’s no use in having great SEO if there is no one around to help the beginners, right?


Most of the traffic is coming from this question: How to install Lua on Windows?


Further, technical documentation really scares beginners. Forum posts are much more welcoming and it allows beginners to reply and ask questions when something is unclear. This is not possible in the reference manual. It would be great to see what beginners are struggling to grasp. Once a question has been answered, it doesn’t have to be answered again.


It can also be a place for experts to share ideas (such as Space/Time Duality by Gavin). This also helps beginners to see good coding practice and style. The space/time duality article is probably the best programming article I’ve ever read.


The things you post on LuaForum.com will never be deleted. Running a forum is really cheap, and I have no problem sponsoring it myself; everything is already prepaid until 2025.


To summarize, why join Lua Forum?

  • People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing list

  • The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for help

  • Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question

  • Experts can share good coding practice and style

  • Posts will never be deleted


I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.


Thank you for reading,

Sorn


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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Albert Krewinkel
In reply to this post by James Darnley

James Darnley writes:

> On 12/11/2020, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to
>> make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners.
>
> Why?  Popularity ruins everything.

Couple of reasons:

 * Makes it easier to justify using Lua in a program;
 * less effort required to teach users;
 * higher popularity means more devs means more people doing cool stuff
   (I like cool stuff);
 * being popular can lead to support through big companies, which,
   again, leads to better language infra.

Take Haskell, which has the motto "avoid success at all costs". I think
it is a good motto when parsed as "avoid (success at all costs)."
Ruining things for the sake of being popular is no fun. Being popular
for one's awesomeness seems great though.

I want my languages to be good, but I also enjoy to see my code being
*used*. Being able to condescendingly tell people about how my obscure
language is far superior is pretty far down on my list of priorities.[^1]



[^1]: OK, fine. I *may* sometimes get that snobbish facial expression
      when I tell people that Lua is "like JavaScript, but without the
      bad parts". But that's entirely Lua's fault. ;)


--
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe  e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124
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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Russell Haley


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 1:02 PM Albert Krewinkel <[hidden email]> wrote:

James Darnley writes:

> On 12/11/2020, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to
>> make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners.
>
> Why?  Popularity ruins everything.

Couple of reasons:

 * Makes it easier to justify using Lua in a program;
 * less effort required to teach users;
 * higher popularity means more devs means more people doing cool stuff
   (I like cool stuff);
 * being popular can lead to support through big companies, which,
   again, leads to better language infra.

The reason the Torch AI project team switched to Python from Lua was because of the popularity that Python has had recently. They were losing mindshare because Lua wasn't (isn't) very popular. As soon as they moved to Python, their usage trended much higher. I have been pushing Lua as a scripting language here at work for some time. I have repeatedly demonstrated the flexibility and awesomeness of Lua and used it in many places for our Canadian Emergency Ventilator. But when our optics group decided they needed a hacking language they picked Python because it's popular and easy (Jupyter Notepads). When the EE team decided to start putting together algorithms for prototype testing they picked Python because "all the cool tools support python".  When the QA team needed something for verification algorithms, they picked Python because there were lots of packages available that had the routines they wanted. How can I argue for Lua against that? Lua doesn't even have a standard library! My argument would go like this: "Ya but guys, if you spend twice as long and write that in Lua, we could embed it in an Arm based router!  Yes, you will have to hack together every little library you want and deal with everyone's bugs because not enough people are using the components, but it's embeddable!"

While popularity may put as-yet-unforseen pressures on a community, obscurity is a real killer.  That is experience as someone that loved (loves) Windows Phone, BBOS, Mono and FreeBSD. I'm not saying Lua is dead or dying or anything stupid like that. I'm just saying making Lua a little more accessible wouldn't kill anyone and would sure help it's uptake.

Would I like to see a desktop community for Lua? Absolutely. Does Lua need more uptake? I don't know; there are tens of millions of kids writing Lua in Roblox as we speak. OpenWRT doesn't seem to care that nobody is using Lua. Sierra Wireless doesn't need your support to use Lua in it's modems. The FreeBSD bootloader project will continue using Lua without complaint. It seems the communities that need Lua and want to use Lua are doing just fine. Those people just aren't on this mailing list.

Russ
 

Take Haskell, which has the motto "avoid success at all costs". I think
it is a good motto when parsed as "avoid (success at all costs)."
Ruining things for the sake of being popular is no fun. Being popular
for one's awesomeness seems great though.

I want my languages to be good, but I also enjoy to see my code being
*used*. Being able to condescendingly tell people about how my obscure
language is far superior is pretty far down on my list of priorities.[^1]



[^1]: OK, fine. I *may* sometimes get that snobbish facial expression
      when I tell people that Lua is "like JavaScript, but without the
      bad parts". But that's entirely Lua's fault. ;)


--
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe  e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124
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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Paul Ducklin
In reply to this post by Albert Krewinkel
You probably want to look at tidying up the Jobs section - at the moment it's all just automated spam about vague work tasks from freelancing site Upwork that has the word "lua" in it somewhere.

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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
You have to be logged in to Upwork to see the "Upwork jobs" appearing on Lua Forum. I added the feed to Lua Forum so that people don't have to login to Upwork unless they find something interesting. I manually clean the jobs section once in a while. Also, the jobs from Upwork don't show up in the newests posts section so it doesn't spam the forum.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 2:06 PM Paul Ducklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
You probably want to look at tidying up the Jobs section - at the moment it's all just automated spam about vague work tasks from freelancing site Upwork that has the word "lua" in it somewhere.

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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
In reply to this post by Russell Haley
> While I enjoy the Lua mailing list, a forum is a great idea IMHO. I think it will open up Lua to many people for searching answers and participating. Why do I think that? Because there are LOTS of mailling lists for Lua in specific areas. Robolx dev forums are a great example of forums at work for Lua. I also think this particular mailing list is very insular due to the nature of Lua.

Exactly! Other examples of successful Lua related forums are otland.net (OpenTibia community; uses Lua scripting a lot) and the LÖVE forum.

WinLua looks interesting, I will try it out right after my exams. Maybe you could add the download instructions for WinLua to How to install Lua on Windows too? Just to make it easier for people to find it.

Btw, the download is very slow from WinLua.net (7-8 minutes for 164MB; my download speed is 185Mbit/s or 24MB/s), you should make a release on Github and have people download it from there instead. I also get the warning below, maybe that will disappear as well if you upload it to Github instead?
image.png

Thank you Russ!
See you on the forums!


On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:54 PM Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Sorn, 

TLDR: I support you. I think LHF and Roberto (lua.org) are wise to stay at arms length and have seen this entire scenario play (fizzle) out many times before. I've seen similar discussions 3 times in my short life on this list.

While I enjoy the Lua mailing list, a forum is a great idea IMHO. I think it will open up Lua to many people for searching answers and participating. Why do I think that? Because there are LOTS of mailling lists for Lua in specific areas. Robolx dev forums are a great example of forums at work for Lua. I also think this particular mailing list is very insular due to the nature of Lua. I say this because "desktop scripting language" is only one scenario and the Lua authors (and owners of the mailing list) keep Lua as small and generic as possible. There is a great deal that can be done (and has been done) in the past to make Lua a better desktop solution. Just don't look for support from Lua.org because they will (wisely) not become involved.

As per installing Lua on Windows: I have been working on a Lua Binary distribution called WinLua: http://winlua.net. It uses MSI installers to set up all the proper paths and whatnot. It comes in two flavors currently: Just Lua 5.3 (+ LuaFileSystem) or WinLua Toolchain with compilers and a build system. I am trying to get a new release complete which bundles the latest LLVM Compiler (11) with LuaRocks, Lua 5.4 and a Lua build system (xmake). There is currently an existing functional BETA of "WinLua Toolchain" that uses LLVM 10. I am also working on a small compiler that is designed just for use with LuaRocks for people that want great C modules but don't care about writing C; I currently have it down to 200 MB with a compiler, Luarocks (3.0.3) and Lua 5.3. 

See you on the forums!
Russ

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 6:23 AM Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi! I’m Sorn Maksumic. The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners. If you’re interested, please continue to read.


Beginners are most likely not going to join this mailing list. They’re just not. Especially those who are new to programming in general. As you already know, Lua is used a lot in game development and mods, which makes it the first programming language for many. Maybe it was one of your first programming languages too? It was mine, I got introduced to Lua through Open Tibia (a game).


To continue, at least 90% of the traffic LuaForum.com is getting is from beginners searching “Lua Forum”, because they need help. The forum has great SEO (mainly because of the domain name) and the forum always appears on the first page on Google. But, it’s no use in having great SEO if there is no one around to help the beginners, right?


Most of the traffic is coming from this question: How to install Lua on Windows?


Further, technical documentation really scares beginners. Forum posts are much more welcoming and it allows beginners to reply and ask questions when something is unclear. This is not possible in the reference manual. It would be great to see what beginners are struggling to grasp. Once a question has been answered, it doesn’t have to be answered again.


It can also be a place for experts to share ideas (such as Space/Time Duality by Gavin). This also helps beginners to see good coding practice and style. The space/time duality article is probably the best programming article I’ve ever read.


The things you post on LuaForum.com will never be deleted. Running a forum is really cheap, and I have no problem sponsoring it myself; everything is already prepaid until 2025.


To summarize, why join Lua Forum?

  • People new to programming are most likely not going to join a mailing list

  • The forum has great SEO and it’s the first place many beginners look for help

  • Technical documentation can be scary and there's no way to ask a question

  • Experts can share good coding practice and style

  • Posts will never be deleted


I hope you join, but no pressure if you don't. It's up to you.


Thank you for reading,

Sorn


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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
In reply to this post by Albert Krewinkel
> * Makes it easier to justify using Lua in a program;
> * less effort required to teach users;
> * higher popularity means more devs means more people doing cool stuff
>   (I like cool stuff);
> * being popular can lead to support through big companies, which,
>   again, leads to better language infra.
Good points!

> Ruining things for the sake of being popular is no fun. Being popular for one's awesomeness seems great though.
I totally agree. One does not exclude the other.

> I want my languages to be good, but I also enjoy to see my code being
> *used*.

I think what we're getting at here is that as long as we don't "sell out," popularity is beneficial both to the Lua programming language and the Lua developers.

I imagine Lua Forum to be one of many ways that makes Lua more accessible, especially to beginners.
And I hope more of you join LuaForum.com

Btw, I'm preparing for my exams and I may be slow to answer sometimes.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:02 PM Albert Krewinkel <[hidden email]> wrote:

James Darnley writes:

> On 12/11/2020, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The reason I'm sending this email is that I want to
>> make Lua accessible to everyone, especially beginners.
>
> Why?  Popularity ruins everything.

Couple of reasons:

 * Makes it easier to justify using Lua in a program;
 * less effort required to teach users;
 * higher popularity means more devs means more people doing cool stuff
   (I like cool stuff);
 * being popular can lead to support through big companies, which,
   again, leads to better language infra.

Take Haskell, which has the motto "avoid success at all costs". I think
it is a good motto when parsed as "avoid (success at all costs)."
Ruining things for the sake of being popular is no fun. Being popular
for one's awesomeness seems great though.

I want my languages to be good, but I also enjoy to see my code being
*used*. Being able to condescendingly tell people about how my obscure
language is far superior is pretty far down on my list of priorities.[^1]



[^1]: OK, fine. I *may* sometimes get that snobbish facial expression
      when I tell people that Lua is "like JavaScript, but without the
      bad parts". But that's entirely Lua's fault. ;)


--
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe  e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124
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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Paul Ducklin
In reply to this post by Sorn Županić Maksumić
It’s still spam. 


On 18 Nov 2020, at 21:00, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

You have to be logged in to Upwork to see the "Upwork jobs" appearing on Lua Forum. I added the feed to Lua Forum so that people don't have to login to Upwork unless they find something interesting. I manually clean the jobs section once in a while. Also, the jobs from Upwork don't show up in the newests posts section so it doesn't spam the forum.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 2:06 PM Paul Ducklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
You probably want to look at tidying up the Jobs section - at the moment it's all just automated spam about vague work tasks from freelancing site Upwork that has the word "lua" in it somewhere.

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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
> It’s still spam. 
It's the second time you say that. Can you say why?

This was my previous answer to you explaining why they're there:
You have to be logged in to Upwork to see the "Upwork jobs" appearing on Lua Forum. I added the feed to Lua Forum so that people don't have to login to Upwork unless they find something interesting. I manually clean the jobs section once in a while. Also, the jobs from Upwork don't show up in the newests posts section so it doesn't spam the forum.

All the jobs in the job section are relevant to Lua developers.


On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:58 AM Paul Ducklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
It’s still spam. 


On 18 Nov 2020, at 21:00, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

You have to be logged in to Upwork to see the "Upwork jobs" appearing on Lua Forum. I added the feed to Lua Forum so that people don't have to login to Upwork unless they find something interesting. I manually clean the jobs section once in a while. Also, the jobs from Upwork don't show up in the newests posts section so it doesn't spam the forum.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 2:06 PM Paul Ducklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
You probably want to look at tidying up the Jobs section - at the moment it's all just automated spam about vague work tasks from freelancing site Upwork that has the word "lua" in it somewhere.

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Re: Making Lua accessible to everyone

Sorn Županić Maksumić
There's also a feedback section where you can share your thoughts on how to improve the forum.
And if more people find the Upwork jobs annoying then I will remove them.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:01 AM Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It’s still spam. 
It's the second time you say that. Can you say why?

This was my previous answer to you explaining why they're there:
You have to be logged in to Upwork to see the "Upwork jobs" appearing on Lua Forum. I added the feed to Lua Forum so that people don't have to login to Upwork unless they find something interesting. I manually clean the jobs section once in a while. Also, the jobs from Upwork don't show up in the newests posts section so it doesn't spam the forum.

All the jobs in the job section are relevant to Lua developers.


On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:58 AM Paul Ducklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
It’s still spam. 


On 18 Nov 2020, at 21:00, Sorn Županić Maksumić <[hidden email]> wrote:

You have to be logged in to Upwork to see the "Upwork jobs" appearing on Lua Forum. I added the feed to Lua Forum so that people don't have to login to Upwork unless they find something interesting. I manually clean the jobs section once in a while. Also, the jobs from Upwork don't show up in the newests posts section so it doesn't spam the forum.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 2:06 PM Paul Ducklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
You probably want to look at tidying up the Jobs section - at the moment it's all just automated spam about vague work tasks from freelancing site Upwork that has the word "lua" in it somewhere.