Lua wiki content in other languages

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Lua wiki content in other languages

Nick Trout

Hello all, I have been approached by a Portuguese speaker about adding
Portuguese content to the Lua wiki (specifically, a tutorial). The wiki
is an open forum for Lua content and there seems to be no reason to
complain about this. Unfortunately I, and many of the current regular
contributors probably don't speak Portuguese so we wouldn't be able to
contribute to pages in Portuguese - but the same could be said about
none English speakers and the current wiki! Obviously, I'm biased
towards having as much of the content being in English (which apart from
a basic knowledge of French is my only language), for the obvious reason
that I would like to read and contribute to the existing and future
content.

I was wondering if anybody had any ideas or experience of mixed language
wikis/websites and how might be the best way to organise this. For
example, how might the wiki links work cross language? I know the
MoinMoin wiki has mixed content (for the basic docs):

http://twistedmatrix.com/users/jh.twistd/moin/moin.cgi/TitleIndex

I think that wiki implementation has good foreign language support,
which brings up the issue of: can our wiki support the character sets
necessary to do this? Is there anything else that we need to think
about?

Regards,
Nick



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Re: Lua wiki content in other languages

RLak-2
> I was wondering if anybody had any ideas or experience of mixed language
> wikis/websites and how might be the best way to organise this. For
> example, how might the wiki links work cross language?

The Lua wiki does not seem to have multilingual features enabled, but I 
remember from looking at the code which John Belmonte kindly shared with 
me some time ago that it is not difficult to enable. Without this, it is 
not possible to create WikiWords which include accented characters, for 
example (nor the Spanish ñ nor Portuguese ç). But I didn't have any 
trouble creating <http://lua-users.org/wiki/LuaEnCastellano> ... although 
now that I have created it, I fear it may turn into a responsibility. :)

Wikis don't generally have any facility for automatically linking 
translations of pages, so that has to be done manually; more seriously, 
there is no way to ensure that translations stay up to date with changes. 
So I think the best thing would be to keep content separate, with 
cross-links as appropriate. Since it is not a particularly massive Wiki, I 
doubt whether anything more sophisticated would be necessary.

Personally, I would support the idea -- I'm not going to claim to be able 
to write Portuguese, but I can read it OK, and can help a bit.

R.





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RE: Lua wiki content in other languages

Nick Trout
In reply to this post by Nick Trout

> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 11:47 AM
> To: Lua list
> Subject: Re: Lua wiki content in other languages

How did you manage to respond before it arrived?! What are the lottery numbers?! Who's the winner in the 3.10 at Ascot? What am I having for lunch? Mmmm lunch...


> > I was wondering if anybody had any ideas or experience of mixed language
> > wikis/websites and how might be the best way to organise this. For
> > example, how might the wiki links work cross language?
> 
> The Lua wiki does not seem to have multilingual features enabled, but I
> remember from looking at the code which John Belmonte kindly shared with
> me some time ago that it is not difficult to enable. Without this, it is
> not possible to create WikiWords which include accented characters, for
> example (nor the Spanish ñ nor Portuguese ç). But I didn't have any
> trouble creating <http://lua-users.org/wiki/LuaEnCastellano> ... although
> now that I have created it, I fear it may turn into a responsibility. :)
> 
> Wikis don't generally have any facility for automatically linking
> translations of pages, so that has to be done manually; more seriously,
> there is no way to ensure that translations stay up to date with changes.
> So I think the best thing would be to keep content separate, with
> cross-links as appropriate. Since it is not a particularly massive Wiki, I
> doubt whether anything more sophisticated would be necessary.

A separate wiki does seem to make sense since text searches probably won't make sense and the links will have to be duplicated for translated pages which sound like it could turn into a mess. I think Moin deals with multiple languages by having a different entry point (front page) for a users chosen language, but I don't think we have that feature. It's easy to link cross wiki with the otherwiki:PageName syntax as well. 

Mr Belmonte, what do you think?


> Personally, I would support the idea -- I'm not going to claim to be able
> to write Portuguese, but I can read it OK, and can help a bit.

Thanks Rici,
Nick



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Re: Lua wiki content in other languages

John Belmonte-2
Nick Trout wrote:
Mr Belmonte, what do you think?

Like most things, I think it's best to divide up the problem space and be lazy.

But before I go on, I have a question. You said that the original desire was to add a non-English tutorial to the wiki. Would this be a mirror of the current tutorial in English or new content? If it's just a mirror, I'd question whether it belongs in wiki form.

This is a very slippery slope, so I don't want to even look over the edge unless there is a real need.

-John


--
http:// if  ile.o g/


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RE: Lua wiki content in other languages

Nick Trout
In reply to this post by Nick Trout

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Belmonte [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:41 PM
> To: Lua list
> Subject: Re: Lua wiki content in other languages
> 
> Nick Trout wrote:
> > Mr Belmonte, what do you think?
> 
> Like most things, I think it's best to divide up the problem space and
> be lazy.

It may be more practical. I don't think I'd fancy the job of having to
untangle 3 or 4 different languages if the wiki got to stage where it
needed to be split. 

> But before I go on, I have a question.  You said that the original
> desire was to add a non-English tutorial to the wiki.  Would this be a
> mirror of the current tutorial in English or new content?  If it's
just
> a mirror, I'd question whether it belongs in wiki form.

I believe it will be based on an earlier Lua tutorial in Portuguese,
although translation has been mentioned.


Nick



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Re: Lua wiki content in other languages

John Belmonte-2
Nick Trout wrote:
Like most things, I think it's best to divide up the problem space and
be lazy.

It may be more practical. I don't think I'd fancy the job of having to
untangle 3 or 4 different languages if the wiki got to stage where it
needed to be split.

Well, here is what I mean about dividing up the problem space and being lazy. My take is:

Accept new content in other languages, but don't undertake a project to translate existing content.

    Avoid mixing languages on a single page.

Don't accept content in a new language unless there is a plan to have a large-ish amount of content in that language.

Don't make a new wiki that is specific to a certain language unless the current wiki is overwhelmed with pages in that language.

Stick to English for wiki page names. I had an experience where Japanese wiki users were quite tolerant of such a limitation.


If we were going to hobble along with that, then all I'd need to do is change the HTML page encodings to utf-8. However, Netscape 4 and similar browsers of that era, while they can display utf-8 pages, cannot handle utf-8 in a text box (required for page editing). Those using old browsers, now is your chance to speak up...

Anyway, did I mention this is a slippery slope?

(By the way Nick, why are your replies always to the parent of a posting rather than the posting itself?)

-John


--
http:// if  ile.o g/


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RE: Lua wiki content in other languages

Nick Trout
In reply to this post by Nick Trout

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Belmonte [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:19 PM
> To: Lua list
> Subject: Re: Lua wiki content in other languages
> 
> Nick Trout wrote:
> >>Like most things, I think it's best to divide up the problem space
and
> >>be lazy.
> >
> > It may be more practical. I don't think I'd fancy the job of having
to
> > untangle 3 or 4 different languages if the wiki got to stage where
it
> > needed to be split.
> 
> Well, here is what I mean about dividing up the problem space and
being
> lazy.  My take is:
> 
>      Accept new content in other languages, but don't undertake a
> project to translate existing content.
> 
>      Avoid mixing languages on a single page.
> 
>      Don't accept content in a new language unless there is a plan to
> have a large-ish amount of content in that language.
> 
>      Don't make a new wiki that is specific to a certain language
unless
> the current wiki is overwhelmed with pages in that language.
> 
>      Stick to English for wiki page names.  I had an experience where
> Japanese wiki users were quite tolerant of such a limitation.

These sound like good rules. There are pros and cons for splitting other
language wikis off and keeping it on the same site. Splitting off would
allow the other language site to develop in its own way. If there are
different authors involved then they may consider a different
organisation - I'm not sure how different it may be.

I agree mixing languages on the same page would be a recipe for disaster
as large refactoring would become very difficult and time consuming. If
all names are in English how would you resolve clashes? Every name ends
in its language? E.g. LuaTutorial -> LuaTutorialPortuguese.

A feature which might help in the maintenance of cross language content
would be mailing changes to subscribed users. This is a feature than
Moin provides, so if someone did want to translate a certain item they
could subscribe to the page of the original content and make changes
when the wiki notified them. This would also be useful if you had an
interest in a particular page. Of course you can always looks at recent
changes but I doubt many people would do that daily and it's less of a
chore when you are told a page has changed.

> If we were going to hobble along with that, then all I'd need to do is
> change the HTML page encodings to utf-8.  However, Netscape 4 and
> similar browsers of that era, while they can display utf-8 pages,
cannot
>   handle utf-8 in a text box (required for page editing).  Those using
> old browsers, now is your chance to speak up...
> 
> Anyway, did I mention this is a slippery slope?

As slippery as Slippery McSlip the greased up eel. I agree with you that
unless significant content is generated for other languages it may be a
lot of hassle setting up the wiki and maintaining when it could just be
static content on lua-users.org. I don't remember any complaints about
the docs not being in any language other than English TBH, and noone has
added any none English content up until now when they have been free to
add whatever they want.

> (By the way Nick, why are your replies always to the parent of a
posting
> rather than the posting itself?)

I've no idea. I just hit reply, type and send. I (have to) use Outlook
at work so it may be that?

Nick

www. oc s arv ncou er.com



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Re: Lua wiki content in other languages

John Belmonte-2
Nick Trout wrote:
These sound like good rules. There are pros and cons for splitting other
language wikis off and keeping it on the same site. Splitting off would
allow the other language site to develop in its own way. If there are
different authors involved then they may consider a different
organisation - I'm not sure how different it may be.

I agree mixing languages on the same page would be a recipe for disaster
as large refactoring would become very difficult and time consuming. If
all names are in English how would you resolve clashes? Every name ends
in its language? E.g. LuaTutorial -> LuaTutorialPortuguese.

For now, why not prefix the Portuguese pages with the language code Pt? After there are a few such pages, I don't have anything against setting up a wiki for that language. We should just make it clear that there is no intention to mirror the English site.

A feature which might help in the maintenance of cross language content
would be mailing changes to subscribed users. This is a feature than
Moin provides, so if someone did want to translate a certain item they
could subscribe to the page of the original content and make changes
when the wiki notified them. This would also be useful if you had an
interest in a particular page. Of course you can always looks at recent
changes but I doubt many people would do that daily and it's less of a
chore when you are told a page has changed.

The wiki codebase had that notification feature but I disabled it. There is no authorization so you could start subscribing other people's addresses, or write a script to automate this and cause a lot of trouble. In any case, there is no way to send email out from sourceforge.

-John


--
http:// if  ile.o g/