Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

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Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Pierre Chapuis
On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:

> I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
> certainly be interesting...

I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
been tried at least once:
http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.

Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?

--
Pierre Chapuis


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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Elias Barrionovo
eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ ) was reported to run on a pentium with no OS underneath it:
http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:

I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
certainly be interesting...

I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
been tried at least once:
http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.

Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?

--
Pierre Chapuis





--
NI!
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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Rena
In reply to this post by Pierre Chapuis
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 06:35, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:
>
>> I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
>> certainly be interesting...
>
> I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
> been tried at least once:
> http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
> Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.
>
> Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
> been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?
>
> --
> Pierre Chapuis
>
>
>

I think the basic idea would be to just write a "bootstrap" kernel,
just enough to set up the machine and load a Lua script from
somewhere, providing it with functions to access the hardware, so that
everything from that level on could be done entirely in Lua.

A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
problem...

I haven't actually done anything other than thought about this though. :)

--
Sent from my toaster.

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Rena
In reply to this post by Elias Barrionovo
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 06:39, Elias Barrionovo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ ) was reported to run on a pentium with
> no OS underneath it:
> http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:
>>
>>> I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
>>> certainly be interesting...
>>
>> I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
>> been tried at least once:
>>
>> http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
>> Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.
>>
>> Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
>> been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?
>>
>> --
>> Pierre Chapuis
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> NI!
>

Aha, that seems like exactly the kind of "mini-kernel" I was thinking
of. Next step would be to add some functions for Lua to talk to the
peripherals, and go from there...

--
Sent from my toaster.

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

startx
In reply to this post by Pierre Chapuis
On Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:35:39 +0200
Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:
>
> > I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
> > certainly be interesting...
>
> I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
> been tried at least once:
> http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
> Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.
>

i should have a copy of the source. ill check later and if its really
not accessible anymore i put it up somewhere next days.

startx

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Pierre Chapuis
In reply to this post by Elias Barrionovo
On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:39:14 -0300, Elias Barrionovo wrote:
> eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ [2] ) was reported to run on a
> pentium with no OS underneath it:
> http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC [3]

This is the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks.
Sounds like I should take a look at eLua.

--
Pierre Chapuis

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

云帆江
In reply to this post by Elias Barrionovo
yes i have tried elua years ago

it works well, but how to let it support my hareware like network card or sound card

i think it will be better for lua to run as an kernel service on an micro kernel OS , especially the luajit2


On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 09:39:14AM -0300, Elias Barrionovo wrote:

> eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ ) was reported to run on a pentium with
> no OS underneath it:
> http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:
> >
> >  I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
> >> certainly be interesting...
> >>
> >
> > I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
> > been tried at least once:
> > http://outofhanwell.wordpress.**com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-**
> > operating-system/<http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/>
> > Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.
> >
> > Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
> > been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Chapuis
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> NI!

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Sean Conner
In reply to this post by Rena
It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
>
> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
> problem...

  Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
1) written in Lua.

  -spc


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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Rena
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 09:31, Sean Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
>>
>> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
>> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
>> problem...
>
>  Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
> 1) written in Lua.
>
>  -spc
>
>
>

That sounds like about what I meant by "hack a Linux kernel". I don't
know Linux's innards very well, but I'm guessing by the sound of it no
actual kernel hacking would be necessary?

--
Sent from my toaster.

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

BogdanM
In reply to this post by Pierre Chapuis
Hi,

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:39:14 -0300, Elias Barrionovo wrote:
eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ [2] ) was reported to run on a

pentium with no OS underneath it:
http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC [3]

This is the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks.
Sounds like I should take a look at eLua.

Sorry to disappoint you, but eLua booting directly on a PC was merely a demo which was meant to show eLua's high portability (also something I wrote because I didn't have any eLua-capable micros back then). I didn't try this specific port in a while and I'm not ever sure if it boots on the PC anymore (it should); even if it does, you're going to have a really hard time writing drivers for it. This is one of the main reasons that makes implementing a new functional OS on a PC nowadays a quick and painful failure. One simply can't keep up with all the hardware without a developer base comparable with the one behind Linux. You could choose a limited number of peripherals that you support (this is the approach taken by MenuetOS for example), but then you'll end up configuring a PC for the sole purpose of running your OS. Not many people are willing to do that. In the end such a project is interesting, a lot of fun to work on, it has an extremely high educational value, but don't expect it to be practical. For a PC, running Lua on top of a Linux kernel sounds like a much better idea. 

Best,
Bogdan

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Marc Balmer
Am 03.08.11 19:36, schrieb Bogdan Marinescu:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:39:14 -0300, Elias Barrionovo wrote:
>>
>>> eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ [2] ) was reported to run on a
>>>
>>> pentium with no OS underneath it:
>>> http://wiki.eluaproject.net/**Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC<http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC>[3]
>>>
>>
>> This is the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks.
>> Sounds like I should take a look at eLua.
>>
>
> Sorry to disappoint you, but eLua booting directly on a PC was merely a demo
> which was meant to show eLua's high portability (also something I wrote
> because I didn't have any eLua-capable micros back then). I didn't try this
> specific port in a while and I'm not ever sure if it boots on the PC anymore
> (it should); even if it does, you're going to have a really hard time
> writing drivers for it. This is one of the main reasons that makes
> implementing a new functional OS on a PC nowadays a quick and painful
> failure. One simply can't keep up with all the hardware without a developer
> base comparable with the one behind Linux. You could choose a limited number
> of peripherals that you support (this is the approach taken by MenuetOS for
> example), but then you'll end up configuring a PC for the sole purpose of
> running your OS. Not many people are willing to do that. In the end such a
> project is interesting, a lot of fun to work on, it has an extremely high
> educational value, but don't expect it to be practical. For a PC, running
> Lua on top of a Linux kernel sounds like a much better idea.

Slightly related:

It might of interest to some folke here that NetBSD contains Lua in base
and that there is an (ongoing) project to Lua in the kernel as well.  It
was a GSoC project last year, run by Lourival Neta and mentored by me,
and Lourival and I recently decided to again hack a bit on this.

Prototyping device drivers in Lua, or do other "weird" stuff should be
possible.  Lua is loaded as a kernel module, but many, many things are
yet to be decied on how to do it.

It's an experiment....


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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Fabio Kaminski
Particularly i think its a bad idea..

if its only to prove a point.. that you can create a Os in Lua.. then
it will be like that OS in haskell only..
just to tell its in haskell..

i think languages has fitness.. and the best program will be created
with the languages with the best fitness.. and of course.. the skilled
programmers..

and lua doesnt fit for low level.. it can be done of course.. but you
will end with a bad OS.. at least compared with a C or even a C++
based kernel..

if you want a proof of concept.. for the love of the language.. than fine..

But dont think the kernel will be anything competitive..  you will
need "byte-eaters" languages..

the other thing is if you wanna explore some OS experiments.. like
create a Exokernel based OS.. or a microkernel..

but this will be very scientific and academic..

Also the garbage collector will be "in the way" of a lot of
functionalities provided by OS, like memory management.. device
drivers .. etc
or you would have to fork Lua vm with a VM with manual memory
management.. or you would end writing in C anyway..

in the end nobody cares in what language does that OS was coded.. but
if its good and competitive..

But i think a good propose would be doing the core parts in languages
like C (where the fits for low level is high)
and where its possible.. for management.. shell... etc.. it could be
done in lua..

by the way Fabrice Bellard creator of QEMU, TCC, FFMPEG... create a PC
emulator written in javascript only
compiled a linux kernel and you can run it in your own browser in this link

http://bellard.org/jslinux/

anyway is possible.. but for lab experiments.. etc..

for usability and popularity i think its a bad idea.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Marc Balmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 03.08.11 19:36, schrieb Bogdan Marinescu:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:39:14 -0300, Elias Barrionovo wrote:
>>>
>>>> eLua ( http://www.eluaproject.net/ [2] ) was reported to run on a
>>>>
>>>> pentium with no OS underneath it:
>>>> http://wiki.eluaproject.net/**Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC<http://wiki.eluaproject.net/Booting%20eLua%20on%20a%20PC>[3]
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks.
>>> Sounds like I should take a look at eLua.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry to disappoint you, but eLua booting directly on a PC was merely a demo
>> which was meant to show eLua's high portability (also something I wrote
>> because I didn't have any eLua-capable micros back then). I didn't try this
>> specific port in a while and I'm not ever sure if it boots on the PC anymore
>> (it should); even if it does, you're going to have a really hard time
>> writing drivers for it. This is one of the main reasons that makes
>> implementing a new functional OS on a PC nowadays a quick and painful
>> failure. One simply can't keep up with all the hardware without a developer
>> base comparable with the one behind Linux. You could choose a limited number
>> of peripherals that you support (this is the approach taken by MenuetOS for
>> example), but then you'll end up configuring a PC for the sole purpose of
>> running your OS. Not many people are willing to do that. In the end such a
>> project is interesting, a lot of fun to work on, it has an extremely high
>> educational value, but don't expect it to be practical. For a PC, running
>> Lua on top of a Linux kernel sounds like a much better idea.
>
> Slightly related:
>
> It might of interest to some folke here that NetBSD contains Lua in base
> and that there is an (ongoing) project to Lua in the kernel as well.  It
> was a GSoC project last year, run by Lourival Neta and mentored by me,
> and Lourival and I recently decided to again hack a bit on this.
>
> Prototyping device drivers in Lua, or do other "weird" stuff should be
> possible.  Lua is loaded as a kernel module, but many, many things are
> yet to be decied on how to do it.
>
> It's an experiment....
>
>
>

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Justin Cormack
In reply to this post by Sean Conner
On 3 Aug 2011, at 16:31, Sean Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
>>
>> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
>> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
>> problem...
>
>  Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
> 1) written in Lua.
>
>  -spc

I am working on that, just for fun, using luajit.
>

Justin


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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Rena
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:20, Justin Cormack
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2011, at 16:31, Sean Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
>>>
>>> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
>>> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
>>> problem...
>>
>>  Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
>> 1) written in Lua.
>>
>>  -spc
>
> I am working on that, just for fun, using luajit.
>>
>
> Justin
>
>
>

I actually think an OS written mostly in Lua could be a very practical
and useful idea - just not on the PC. Think of smartphones, tablets,
and so forth. Android is mostly Java, with all applications being pure
Java - why can't similar be done with Lua? I suspect a phone OS
written in Lua would be much like Android, but simpler (Android's API
is horrendously complicated) and leaner (for having Lua instead of
Java).

I don't want to say "entirely", because of course modern CPUs
unfortunately can't boot into Lua code :) but all you'd need to do in
C/assembly is enough to create a Lua state and give it some functions
it can use to interface with the hardware directly, allocate blocks of
memory, and create other Lua states, and load a "kernel" script
(likely precompiled bytecode) into it. From there it can take care of
loading applications and modules, each in their own Lua state having
whatever functions are appropriate. (e.g. "userland" applications
wouldn't have the raw hardware I/O functions provided.)

Of course even here, using a Linux kernel is still an option as well.

--
Sent from my toaster.

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Mike Panetta
Um, just FYI, Android is Linux, the apps are java.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:33 PM, HyperHacker <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:20, Justin Cormack
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 3 Aug 2011, at 16:31, Sean Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
>>>
>>> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
>>> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
>>> problem...
>>
>>  Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
>> 1) written in Lua.
>>
>>  -spc
>
> I am working on that, just for fun, using luajit.
>>
>
> Justin
>
>
>

I actually think an OS written mostly in Lua could be a very practical
and useful idea - just not on the PC. Think of smartphones, tablets,
and so forth. Android is mostly Java, with all applications being pure
Java - why can't similar be done with Lua? I suspect a phone OS
written in Lua would be much like Android, but simpler (Android's API
is horrendously complicated) and leaner (for having Lua instead of
Java).

I don't want to say "entirely", because of course modern CPUs
unfortunately can't boot into Lua code :) but all you'd need to do in
C/assembly is enough to create a Lua state and give it some functions
it can use to interface with the hardware directly, allocate blocks of
memory, and create other Lua states, and load a "kernel" script
(likely precompiled bytecode) into it. From there it can take care of
loading applications and modules, each in their own Lua state having
whatever functions are appropriate. (e.g. "userland" applications
wouldn't have the raw hardware I/O functions provided.)

Of course even here, using a Linux kernel is still an option as well.

--
Sent from my toaster.


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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Dimiter 'malkia' Stanev
In reply to this post by Pierre Chapuis
There used to be (and might be in some new form) a project called OSKit
to help you with various drivers for writing a new OS. The page hasn't
been updated since 2002, but there might be something like that:

http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/

Take a look also at this:
http://linuxfinances.info/info/lisposes.html

and this:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/

On 8/3/2011 5:35 AM, Pierre Chapuis wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:
>
>> I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
>> certainly be interesting...
>
> I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
> been tried at least once:
> http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
> Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.
>
> Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
> been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?
>

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Dimiter 'malkia' Stanev
In reply to this post by Justin Cormack
Yummy! :)

Had the code anywhere to share?

On 8/3/2011 11:20 AM, Justin Cormack wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2011, at 16:31, Sean Conner<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
>>>
>>> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
>>> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
>>> problem...
>>
>>   Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
>> 1) written in Lua.
>>
>>   -spc
>
> I am working on that, just for fun, using luajit.
>>
>
> Justin
>
>
>

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Joshua Phillips
In reply to this post by Rena
On Wed 03/Aug/2011, HyperHacker wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 06:35, Pierre Chapuis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:50:38 -0600, HyperHacker wrote:
> >
> >> I have thought about the idea of a Lua-based OS, and it could
> >> certainly be interesting...
> >
> > I too think such a project would be interesting. It has already
> > been tried at least once:
> > http://outofhanwell.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/khoros-a-lua-operating-system/
> > Sadly the source code is no longer accessible.
> >
> > Does anybody here know where it could be found or if there have
> > been other attempts at running a Lua application without OS support?
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Chapuis

I recently ported Lua to work on its own. First I configured Lua to use
integers as lua_Number. Then I disabled the OS and IO libraries, and
implemented the C library functions that Lua needed, and wrote a simple
UART driver in C (it's *very* simple) to interface it. I used Doug Lea's
memory allocator to allocate memory. Then I ported lua.c so that I could
have a command prompt.

Lua doesn't allow you to create arbitrary pointers. A function cannot
obtain access to a table object, for example, except if it is passed
as a parameter or through the environment. It seems to me that Lua
objects would make great capabilities
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_security). No access
checks needed - if a program has the object, they must have been allowed
to use it.

My idea was a single address-space operating system in which all user
code is Lua code (except some trustworthy C modules that can be loaded,
for speed). That, combined with objects-are-capabilities, would make a
rather interesting system.

> I think the basic idea would be to just write a "bootstrap" kernel,
> just enough to set up the machine and load a Lua script from
> somewhere, providing it with functions to access the hardware, so that
> everything from that level on could be done entirely in Lua.

You can include some Lua code in the kernel image, or as multiboot
modules, for bootstrapping.

> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
> problem...

A generic VESA driver should work perfectly well. An OS project has a
(very very) long way to go before video drivers become a problem!

If anyone wants more information about operating system development
(which is surprisingly popular), http://osdev.org/ is a reasonable
starting place.

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Michal Kolodziejczyk-3
In reply to this post by Rena
On 03.08.2011 20:33, HyperHacker wrote:

> I actually think an OS written mostly in Lua could be a very practical
> and useful idea - just not on the PC. Think of smartphones, tablets,
> and so forth. Android is mostly Java, with all applications being pure
> Java - why can't similar be done with Lua? I suspect a phone OS
> written in Lua would be much like Android, but simpler (Android's API
> is horrendously complicated) and leaner (for having Lua instead of
> Java).

AFAIK Android is:
1. linux kernel
2. dalvik VM
3. set of C/C++ libraries
4. application framework (written in java)
5. applications (written in java)

Google for "android architecture", or look at
http://blog.zeustek.com/2010/11/11/android-architecture/

So for "lua-based OS" you could reuse (linux kernel+drivers) and C
libraries, and use some existing lua bindings (or use FFI).
The application framework and the applications would have been written
from scratch.

Also, check out this thread:
http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2009-12/threads.html#00669

Regards,
miko

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Re: Lua-based OS (was: Safe Lua)

Sean Conner
In reply to this post by Rena
It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:

> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 09:31, Sean Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > It was thus said that the Great HyperHacker once stated:
> >>
> >> A much easier method though might be to hack a Linux kernel. And no
> >> matter which method you choose, proprietary graphic drivers present a
> >> problem...
> >
> >  Even easier would be a Linux system with a custom init program (process
> > 1) written in Lua.
> >
> That sounds like about what I meant by "hack a Linux kernel". I don't
> know Linux's innards very well, but I'm guessing by the sound of it no
> actual kernel hacking would be necessary?

  You can think of the Linux kernel as a read-made library that handles all
the low-level stuff of managing a computer.

  -spc

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