From Lua to Python?

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Re: From Lua to Python?

steve donovan
On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Javier Guerra Giraldez
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> the bad thing (at the time, i think it improved a little afterwards)
> was how the interwined code reuse meaning how if you want just one or
> two nice things, you had to swallow everything below that.

I did try to move away from that - recovering from Large Library Syndrome.

Whereas often we just want prepackaged patterns....not entirely sure
how that would look.

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
In reply to this post by Sean Conner
On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Sean Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great Russell Haley once stated:
>>
>> As someone who also thought of himself as an 'Army of One' I can see
>> that without massive amounts of time and resources (i.e. a financial
>> backer), there is little hope to compete even in a small slice of a
>> market. I believe the GPL license is largely responsible for this, as
>> large companies can always pour more resources into a technology than
>> you have available. Then, they simply suck up your GPL'd IP and turn
>> it to their advantage. I disdain the GPL and all who toute it for this
>> reason.
>
>   The GPL, or open source in general.  Because in my experience, companies
> are shying away from GPL code like you wouldn't believe---Apple doesn't
> allow *any* GPL code on iOS and funded development of clang so they could
> remove the one last major GPLed component on their system---GCC.  The only
> program that is still GPLed on Android phones is the kernel, and that's only
> because Linux is GPL2 only (not GPL2+).

Android was Apache licensed last I looked. This is due to historic
reasons. The handset makers that Android targets would not accept a
GPL license due to the shenanigans of Nokia on the Symbian project in
the early 2000's. The bait and switch that the handset makers did NOT
see coming is the move of everything useful for Android into the
proprietary, closed sourced Google Apps application. AOSP is more or
less unusable unless you're a software developer. No license will
defend you against that kind of corporate maneuver.

As a FreeBSD user, I am very grateful for the clang\LLVM project. I
don't blame Apple for locking down their OS. I had once hoped to do
the same thing with FreeBSD in an embedded system (using Lua of
course!). This is also what Sony has done for the Playstation 3 & 4.
Both the Playstation and the new Nintendo is a closed version of
FreeBSD. I believe this to be rightful profitability due to
innovation.[1]

I'm referring more to the IBMs, Oracles and Tata consultancies of the
world. I have now seen two companies steam rolled because the original
authors used FOSS underpinnings and a larger consultancy rolls in and
just takes over the code because, well, it's GPL! I'm sure the
situation was more complex that I have acknowledged, but I no longer
trust the GPL. I'm really glad people want to share source code. I do
too, but I want control over what I share.

Russ

[1] Broken patent systems and abusive licensing agreements aside.


>   No, companies *hate* the GPL for the most part.  Companies *love* the more
> "permissive" [1] like MIT or BSD, because *then* they can take your IP and
> not give anything back [2].  Programmers like MIT and BSD for the exact same
> reason [3].
>
>   -spc (One more reason for companies to hate the GPL---it's user friendly [4])
>
> [1]     Permissive for programmers; they're actually quite user hostile
>         licenses in my opinion.
>
> [2]     Actually, they do tend to give back if the company thinks they can
>         get free maintainence and upgrades of the codebase and it's not
>         giving away too much in the way of competative advantage.
>
> [3]     And maybe hoping to become a large company in turn.
>
> [4]     In that it allows the user to see how the program works (and how
>         data is stored) and also fix and/or improve the program they're
>         using (or perhaps hire a programmer to do the work).
>

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
Hi Rusell,

On 4 July 2017 at 23:25, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm referring more to the IBMs, Oracles and Tata consultancies of the
> world. I have now seen two companies steam rolled because the original
> authors used FOSS underpinnings and a larger consultancy rolls in and
> just takes over the code because, well, it's GPL! I'm sure the
> situation was more complex that I have acknowledged, but I no longer
> trust the GPL. I'm really glad people want to share source code. I do
> too, but I want control over what I share.
>

I am afraid your understanding of GPL is perhaps incorrect. None of
the corporations like GPL. In fact the reason they don't like it is is
that it is a viral license. It requires that any combined work must
also be licensed as GPL.

The only major company that licensed something as GPL was Sun when
they released Java as GPL. This was because of the way GPL works which
meant that Sun could still rely on people wanting a commercial
license. Similar approach was taken by MySQL - before they were bought
by Sun.

I don't particularly like GPL because of its viral nature, therefore I
prefer to use other licenses such as MIT. But these other licenses are
actually ones that can be exploited more easily as they do not require
that licensee gives anything back.

Regards
Dibyendu

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
On 4 July 2017 at 23:34, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4 July 2017 at 23:25, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm referring more to the IBMs, Oracles and Tata consultancies of the
>> world. I have now seen two companies steam rolled because the original
>> authors used FOSS underpinnings and a larger consultancy rolls in and
>> just takes over the code because, well, it's GPL! I'm sure the
>> situation was more complex that I have acknowledged, but I no longer
>> trust the GPL. I'm really glad people want to share source code. I do
>> too, but I want control over what I share.
>>
>
> I am afraid your understanding of GPL is perhaps incorrect. None of
> the corporations like GPL. In fact the reason they don't like it is is
> that it is a viral license. It requires that any combined work must
> also be licensed as GPL.
>
> The only major company that licensed something as GPL was Sun when
> they released Java as GPL. This was because of the way GPL works which
> meant that Sun could still rely on people wanting a commercial
> license. Similar approach was taken by MySQL - before they were bought
> by Sun.
>
> I don't particularly like GPL because of its viral nature, therefore I
> prefer to use other licenses such as MIT. But these other licenses are
> actually ones that can be exploited more easily as they do not require
> that licensee gives anything back.
>

I should add that GPL has perhaps changed the world of software ...
both because of its success (in Linux, GNU etc.) and also because it
has forced companies to go opensource but in a more liberal way. The
world before was very different. When I started programming I could
not get hold of a C compiler because I could not afford to pay.

Regards

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Rusell,
>
> On 4 July 2017 at 23:25, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm referring more to the IBMs, Oracles and Tata consultancies of the
>> world. I have now seen two companies steam rolled because the original
>> authors used FOSS underpinnings and a larger consultancy rolls in and
>> just takes over the code because, well, it's GPL! I'm sure the
>> situation was more complex that I have acknowledged, but I no longer
>> trust the GPL. I'm really glad people want to share source code. I do
>> too, but I want control over what I share.
>>
>
> I am afraid your understanding of GPL is perhaps incorrect. None of
> the corporations like GPL. In fact the reason they don't like it is is
> that it is a viral license. It requires that any combined work must
> also be licensed as GPL.
>
> The only major company that licensed something as GPL was Sun when
> they released Java as GPL. This was because of the way GPL works which
> meant that Sun could still rely on people wanting a commercial
> license. Similar approach was taken by MySQL - before they were bought
> by Sun.
>
> I don't particularly like GPL because of its viral nature, therefore I
> prefer to use other licenses such as MIT. But these other licenses are
> actually ones that can be exploited more easily as they do not require
> that licensee gives anything back.

Which I am not opposed to. Innovating and close sourcing is not my
issue. Like yourself, I prefer MIT, FreeBSD, Apache 2, etc  because I
want to choose what to give back. It is the viral nature of the GPL
that I have seen exploited by those more legally savvy than the
original authors of the projects.

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4 July 2017 at 23:34, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 4 July 2017 at 23:25, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I'm referring more to the IBMs, Oracles and Tata consultancies of the
>>> world. I have now seen two companies steam rolled because the original
>>> authors used FOSS underpinnings and a larger consultancy rolls in and
>>> just takes over the code because, well, it's GPL! I'm sure the
>>> situation was more complex that I have acknowledged, but I no longer
>>> trust the GPL. I'm really glad people want to share source code. I do
>>> too, but I want control over what I share.
>>>
>>
>> I am afraid your understanding of GPL is perhaps incorrect. None of
>> the corporations like GPL. In fact the reason they don't like it is is
>> that it is a viral license. It requires that any combined work must
>> also be licensed as GPL.
>>
>> The only major company that licensed something as GPL was Sun when
>> they released Java as GPL. This was because of the way GPL works which
>> meant that Sun could still rely on people wanting a commercial
>> license. Similar approach was taken by MySQL - before they were bought
>> by Sun.
>>
>> I don't particularly like GPL because of its viral nature, therefore I
>> prefer to use other licenses such as MIT. But these other licenses are
>> actually ones that can be exploited more easily as they do not require
>> that licensee gives anything back.
>>
>
> I should add that GPL has perhaps changed the world of software ...
> both because of its success (in Linux, GNU etc.) and also because it
> has forced companies to go opensource but in a more liberal way. The
> world before was very different. When I started programming I could
> not get hold of a C compiler because I could not afford to pay.

I agree. The world is much different due to GPL. Some of it very
positive, some of it very scary.

Russ

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by Russell Haley
On 4 July 2017 at 23:46, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It is the viral nature of the GPL
> that I have seen exploited by those more legally savvy than the
> original authors of the projects.

Hmm I doubt this is true. Please give a real example.

Regards

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On 4 July 2017 at 23:44, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I should add that GPL has perhaps changed the world of software ...
> both because of its success (in Linux, GNU etc.) and also because it
> has forced companies to go opensource but in a more liberal way. The
> world before was very different. When I started programming I could
> not get hold of a C compiler because I could not afford to pay.
>

http://www.cio.com/article/3112582/linux/linus-torvalds-says-gpl-was-defining-factor-in-linuxs-success.html

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 4 July 2017 at 23:44, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I should add that GPL has perhaps changed the world of software ...
>> both because of its success (in Linux, GNU etc.) and also because it
>> has forced companies to go opensource but in a more liberal way. The
>> world before was very different. When I started programming I could
>> not get hold of a C compiler because I could not afford to pay.
>>
>
> http://www.cio.com/article/3112582/linux/linus-torvalds-says-gpl-was-defining-factor-in-linuxs-success.html

Last line in the article defines my feeling on the issue:

 "Some people love the BSD license. Some people love the proprietary
licenses. I understand that. If you want to make a program and you
want to feed your kids, it makes a lot of sense to have a proprietary
license and sell binaries. I think it makes less sense today, but I
really understand the argument. I don't want to judge. I'm just giving
my view on licensing."

Russ

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 4 July 2017 at 23:46, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It is the viral nature of the GPL
>> that I have seen exploited by those more legally savvy than the
>> original authors of the projects.
>
> Hmm I doubt this is true. Please give a real example.

I shall. I will need time to gather the information as my friend that
still works at one of said companies is on vacation.

Russ

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Jay Carlson
In reply to this post by steve donovan

On Jul 3, 2017, at 9:49 AM, steve donovan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 9:17 PM, Jay Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If only Lua had a (reasonable) subset of the Python libraries.
>
> Heh, that was precisely the start of the Penlight project - nostalgia
> for the Python libraries. But I lost interest in staying faithful to
> that mission, recognizing the differences between the languages, and
> wanting to work with the strengths of Lua.

Yeah. What I’m not missing is tools for dealing with arrays so much as, well, let’s just start down the list:

asyncore,, cmd, codecs (subsetted), fnctl, http.client, http.cookiejar, http.server, imaplib, BytesIO, os, os.path, pathlib, pty, queue, re, readline/rlcompleter (did that one), secrets, shutil, socket/socketserver, sqlite3, ssl, subprocess, termios, timeit, uuid, winreg, zlib

Things you could do in pure Lua, but probably shouldn’t: base64, email.encoders, hashlib, hmac, json, xml (btdt).

Things you should do in pure Lua: argparse, configparser, datetime (please please), email, some subset of logging, mailbox, pdb, plistlib, shlex, struct, tarfile/zipfile,

Yes, I can do much of this already for my platforms (pick a posix library).

Perhaps the Lua way would be to define the OS mechanisms in a very raw form, and then let people squabble over the API.


> I don't doubt that it is doable, but it sounds like a lot of work that
> could be futile - because why should Lua try to be a better Python?

I still get a lot of mileage out of Microlight. So let’s not do that again. :-)

Jay

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Paul E. Merrell, J.D.
In reply to this post by Russell Haley
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Russell Haley [via Lua]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Android was Apache licensed last I looked.

Actually, it's a mix of licenses. For example, the Linux kernel used
in Android is LGPL. [1]

> The bait and switch that the handset makers did NOT
> see coming is the move of everything useful for Android into the
> proprietary, closed sourced Google Apps application. AOSP is more or
> less unusable unless you're a software developer. No license will
> defend you against that kind of corporate maneuver.

The European Commission has had an antitrust investigation going into
that aspect of Android since 2015. From preliminary statements [2] and
knowing how DG Competition works in its investigations, I'll hazard a
prediction that the Commission is going to come down on Google hard in
that regard.

Not that the Commission has just fined Google 2.4 billion Euros and
ordered it to come up with remedial measures for approval because of
its favoring its own comparison shopping search results in Google
searches. [3] The precedent gives strong clues about the final outcome
in the Android case. Both cases involve giving its own
service/applications competitive advantage, classic antitrust
leveraging of a monopoly in one field to gain an unfair advantage in
another.

Best regards,

Paul [retired lawyer]

[1] <https://source.android.com/source/licenses>.

[2] See e.g., <http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm>.

[3] <http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm>.
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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 4 July 2017 at 23:46, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It is the viral nature of the GPL
>> that I have seen exploited by those more legally savvy than the
>> original authors of the projects.
>
> Hmm I doubt this is true. Please give a real example.

So, I need to apologize for my tirade.  I spoke with my friend Paul
and he laughed at me and called me "full of..." well you know.
Apparently it was a requirement from the Ministry of Forests (BC,
Canada) that the portal in question was to be written in GPL licensed
software to protect the ministry from companies creating vendor
lock-in (i.e. from people like me!). I had been very angry about this
for some time now and it seems I was very misinformed.

I brought the subject up at work last week and also received a good
lashing from the other developers that reminded me we are paying tens
of thousands of dollars per seat for Kiel and QNX development
licenses. Peter MacDonald also reminded me that he created his SLS
Linux distribution because he couldn't afford to buy a Unix license
for home use when he wanted to remote into work servers. Things are
different now DUE to GNU and the GPL.

So, again, I apologize. I will be sure to do more research before
leveling accusations about the GPL. I still don't trust big companies
that use it, but will attempt to do further research and avoid looking
for positive affirmation of my opinion. I think I will also try to be
a little less myopic about things that make me upset.

In Sincerity,

Russ

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
Hi Russ,

On 10 July 2017 at 21:06, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So, again, I apologize. I will be sure to do more research before
> leveling accusations about the GPL. I still don't trust big companies
> that use it, but will attempt to do further research and avoid looking
> for positive affirmation of my opinion. I think I will also try to be
> a little less myopic about things that make me upset.
>

I think it is easy to get misinformed these days thanks to the
Internet! Anyway, GPL is a Marxist license - very anti-establishment.
So I think it is very unlikely that companies are exploiting others
using GPL. It is more that GPL exploits others as it is not only a
license but a political statement aiming to change the world. And
maybe that is what is bad about it.

Regards
Dibyendu

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Russell Haley
On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Dibyendu Majumdar
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Russ,
>
> On 10 July 2017 at 21:06, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So, again, I apologize. I will be sure to do more research before
>> leveling accusations about the GPL. I still don't trust big companies
>> that use it, but will attempt to do further research and avoid looking
>> for positive affirmation of my opinion. I think I will also try to be
>> a little less myopic about things that make me upset.
>>
>
> I think it is easy to get misinformed these days thanks to the
> Internet! Anyway, GPL is a Marxist license - very anti-establishment.
> So I think it is very unlikely that companies are exploiting others
> using GPL. It is more that GPL exploits others as it is not only a
> license but a political statement aiming to change the world. And
> maybe that is what is bad about it.

What I find difficult is the LACK of evidence, yet I FEEL like there
is something nefarious happening with the use of the GPL by large
companies. I let that get away from me without properly looking at
what evidence I really do have. This has also pointed out to me that
perhaps the GPL is not what I have issue with at all. Anyway, before I
get ranting again I thank you for the litmus test. I try to learn from
being wrong and this has been an excellent (albeit embarrassing)
learning opportunity for me. :)

Russ

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On 1 July 2017 at 00:09, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am thinking about moving to Python in my project where I am
> currently using Lua as the scripting language. My reason is a
> pragmatic one - Python is becoming popular in the Financial sector,
> and is the language most people my project targets will be familiar
> with. Additionally some of the tools I use - such as Google's GRPC and
> Protocol Buffers - all support Python.
>

Strange though it may sound, I had never bothered to learn Python
until now. Still early days but so far my thoughts are that maybe both
Lua and Python have a place in my project. Maybe Lua is the better
embedded language, but Python is the more versatile scripting
language. Too early to tell though.

An interesting contrast is that in Python an assignment to a variable
creates a local variable - it seems to work in the opposite way
compared to Lua. You have to explicitly say you want a global
variable.

Some recent language features appear to have detailed rationale
documents referenced in the manual - this is great for understanding
what problem was being solved, what options were considered and why
the design is what it is. The sheer amount of effort involved in
writing these proposals must be huge. Like Linux, Python appears to
have successfully fostered a huge community of developers who work on
improving Python.

Regards
Dibyendu

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Sean Conner
In reply to this post by Russell Haley
It was thus said that the Great Russell Haley once stated:

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Dibyendu Majumdar
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi Russ,
> >
> > On 10 July 2017 at 21:06, Russell Haley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> So, again, I apologize. I will be sure to do more research before
> >> leveling accusations about the GPL. I still don't trust big companies
> >> that use it, but will attempt to do further research and avoid looking
> >> for positive affirmation of my opinion. I think I will also try to be
> >> a little less myopic about things that make me upset.
> >>
> >
> > I think it is easy to get misinformed these days thanks to the
> > Internet! Anyway, GPL is a Marxist license - very anti-establishment.
> > So I think it is very unlikely that companies are exploiting others
> > using GPL. It is more that GPL exploits others as it is not only a
> > license but a political statement aiming to change the world. And
> > maybe that is what is bad about it.
>
> What I find difficult is the LACK of evidence, yet I FEEL like there
> is something nefarious happening with the use of the GPL by large
> companies.

  Yes, they're trying to get away from it.  

  The GPL 3 lisense came about because of a loophole exploited by Tivo
(which used Linux).  Yes, you could get the source code, but you couldn't
actually modify the image on the machine and there was nothing in the GPL
(version 2 at the time) about it.  The FSF didn't like this, and thus came
out with the GPL 3 to close that particular loophole.

  This is a contentious issue because of things like John Deer (which makes
farming equipment like tractors and combines) not allowing non-authorized
personel to fix their equipment (can't copy that software!).  The question
comes down to---who actually "own" the machine?  The farmer that bought the
tractor?  Oh wait, was it just a license to use use the tractor?  What does
the fine print take away?

  -spc


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Re: From Lua to Python?

Roberto Ierusalimschy
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
Let us keep this list for discussions about Lua. There are several other
forums available to discuss the political implications of different
licences.

Many thanks,

-- Roberto

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Re: From Lua to Python?

Jay Carlson
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On Jul 11, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it is easy to get misinformed these days thanks to the
> Internet! Anyway, GPL is a Marxist license - very anti-establishment.
> So I think it is very unlikely that companies are exploiting others
> using GPL. It is more that GPL exploits others as it is not only a
> license but a political statement aiming to change the world.

There's no such thing as neutral copyright policy; it's a human creation. Don't let the status quo go unexamined.

In Linux, the GPL forced some big companies to overrule their lawyers and work with each other, instead of competing to build the same infrastructure. Alas, those companies are merely cursed to grow rich together.

Jay
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Re: From Lua to Python?

Dibyendu Majumdar
In reply to this post by Dibyendu Majumdar
On 11 July 2017 at 20:46, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1 July 2017 at 00:09, Dibyendu Majumdar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am thinking about moving to Python in my project where I am
>> currently using Lua as the scripting language. My reason is a
>> pragmatic one - Python is becoming popular in the Financial sector,
>> and is the language most people my project targets will be familiar
>> with. Additionally some of the tools I use - such as Google's GRPC and
>> Protocol Buffers - all support Python.
>>
>
> Strange though it may sound, I had never bothered to learn Python
> until now. Still early days but so far my thoughts are that maybe both
> Lua and Python have a place in my project. Maybe Lua is the better
> embedded language, but Python is the more versatile scripting
> language. Too early to tell though.
>

I am reading the Python language reference and am completely
overwhelmed by the complexity - not of the language per se which seems
slightly more complex than Lua - but the meta mechanisms which are too
numerous for me to try and remember them all. Makes me appreciate
Lua's comparative simplicity - there is only one meta mechanism to
understand in Lua - the metatable.

Regards
Dibyendu

1234